#098 Scott Enderich - American Bowmen

Jul 14

Founded in 1973, the American Bowmen Club has become Colorado’s most sought after bowhunting organization. Its president, Scott Enderich, an avid outdoorsman and archer, joins us today. Growing up in Colorado, Scott has spent an immense amount of time in the backcountry for hunting at a young age with his father. He carries on the family tradition with his son teaching conservation, hunting ethics, and archery. Tune in as Scott joins Bobby Marshall in-studio and discuss archery, outdoor life, bow hunting, Colorado, 3D archery shoots, American Bowmen Club, mountain life, and so much more. Please subscribe or like us on social media platforms for updates on shows, events, and episode drops

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Scott Enderich - American Bowmen

You are tuning in to the show. My guest for this episode is my friend Scott Enderich. He is an avid outdoorsman, archer, conservationist, and the active President of the American Bowmen Club. I enjoyed hanging out with Scott. We came directly from a shooting at the archery range. I hope that you enjoy this episode.

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Right out of the gate, getting out 40 targets.

We spent a couple of hours there.

We ruined too many arrows.

I ruined three. You ruined zero.

We're not chalking it up to that. It was more about the hangout. I'm not trying to be this professional archer. I'm going to say that right out of the gate. I get a ton of hate mail from that community for some reason.

Really?

Yes. I don't know.

It's such a bad community as far as that side of things goes. Let's all just go out there and shoot. Let’s gave a good time and get proficient at it. It doesn't need to be this huge score thing. We kept score, but it was more for our personal benefit than anything.

What was the gentleman's name that you were saying? We can shout him out. The scoring system that you were telling me was the negative two and then score target one. I'm going to start doing that because that's what it's all about for me, having an ethical shot on an animal.

That's our vice president, Andy Young, who came up with that. It's one for a kill shot, negative two for a wound, and zero for a miss. It is amazing because you got to think you don't want to wound an animal while you're out there. You want to make an ethical kill.

That’s a cool system, too. The more I thought about it after we started shooting, I was like, “That makes so much more sense for what I'm trying to achieve.”

Rather than the 8s, 10s, and 12s.

There is a community out there that does that, but there are a lot of people that don't shoot 3Ds specifically.

A lot of people shoot bags and they're trying to hit one dot whereas the 3Ds give you an animal aspect of it. You're looking at lung patterns. You're looking at making an ethical shot.

First off, genuinely, I want to thank you and your family for the time that you've put up there at American Bowmen. It's an incredible place and course with 40 pristine targets that are all Rinehart, nice, 3D life-sized animal targets. There's not a bunch of bullshit out there. Some of these shoots that I go to will have a velociraptor, Yeti, or something like that. I love the fact that you guys have that Western hunt, big game animals.

There are some smaller targets out there too, like the Lynx out there, my arch nemesis. There are a few rabbits. You've placed them behind a nice rock backdrop. I mentioned this to you earlier. You guys need an arrow sponsor. The arrow companies should be giving you money from where you place some of those targets.

I've got to give it up to the group of guys that come out there with us. It's not just me and my family. We've got at least 10 to 15 members coming out to every work party mowing and grass, setting up targets, setting up shots, and even going, “Look at this shot. This would be a cool shot.” We move a pin so that we are getting those cool shots, getting them through the trees, and making it in the hunting experience side of things.

I'm guilty of this, too, for a long time because I would go to 3D shoots. I honestly have more fun at a 3D shoot than I do hunting. For me, I have more fun shooting my bow.

Is it more fun than running around, looking for an animal?

Yes. We have one arrow and one chance. Here, I got 40 chances and more than that if you're throwing more than one arrow. We shot one arrow at each target, which was cool. We could run through the course. Some of those shots were so cool. A lot of guys go to a flat range and stand on polished concrete. You can nail 10 rings or 12 rings all day long from 20 yards. You’re indoor. There’s AC. Everything's perfect. You don't have your quiver on. You’re not wearing a backpack. There's no ranging, judging distances, or shooting off of a 50-foot cliff.

Nature is relaxing and calming. You can forget about the rest of the world and just be out there, be with yourself, and think about life in general.

It’s a 50-degree angle and it ranges out for sixteen yards, but if you're not looking at the angle compensation, it's a 33-yard shot. People aren't thinking of that. Your line of sight might be 33 yards, but you're still only shooting it for sixteen yards because of the angle.

This is why a lot of bow shops that I go into always tell me my drawn length is too short. It should be a half-inch longer by their IBO. I'm not a bow tech either, so don't hate me on this. I've always kept it short for that reason because a lot of the shots that I've taken on animals have been in a hill situation. If you’re shooting downhill, that’s a shorter draw length.

The side hill shots throw people off because you got to make sure your bubbles are leveled and get your cant right.

That’s wild, too. Shout out to you, too, for the traditional style. We're talking about a compound guy versus a traditional guy. We shot pretty even.

The first round was pretty even. In the second round, I fell off a little bit there.

That's a much harder side though. That blue side is rough. To dial it back, if you're reading this and like, “What are these guys talking about right now?” These are life-sized animals. There’s an elk, moose, lynx, mountain lion, and bison. They’re super cool. A lot of them are bucket list hunts for me. There's a wolf in there. There are also caribous. It's awesome. The targets range. They also have a lot of turkeys and black bears, and a few grizzlies standing.

In a lot of these shots, you have to shoot around a tree. There are multiple pins set up on the course depending on your bow setup, skill level, and age. I hate to compare it to this because it's so much better, but it's along the lines of golf or frisbee golf. There's a scoring system involved. Depending on where you hit that target determines your score. We were dialing it back here with a different scoring system that I've never heard of. I've always shot at the 5, 8, 10, and 12.

That is IBO scoring.

Sometimes, there's a 14 involved too, right?

That’s right. IBO does 14 rings, which are usually in the top corner of the lung. That's more for your super competitive people because if you miss that fourteen ring, you're usually getting an 8 or a 5.

That's what that little ring is in the top lung. I didn't know that was a thing. What if you accidentally hit it? Can you claim a fourteen then? It depends on who you're with, right?

On the pro-scoring side of things, they have to call out their fourteen rings and say, “I'm going for that fourteen ring.”

That makes a lot more sense. It’s like calling the eight ball. That's crazy. If you're outside of that, you're a definite 5 or an 8. There's nothing else around it.

That’s a game-changer.

The ten ring on the moose is about the size of a volleyball.

I would say a paper plate.

It’s a lot of fun. Each target is set up at different ranges. What's the furthest shot out there? Is it about 70 yards?

The moose is about 70 yards. It’s a big target, so you should be able to hit it. Most proficient archers can. If you look at the antelope, the antelope is set at 55.

That ranges at 61 because I've shot it. Genuinely, I want to thank you for inviting me up there in the first place and being so hospitable.

You reached out to us. I was more than happy to bring you guys out there. I love that. We were already going out.

American Bowmen: You don't want to wound an animal while you're out there. You want to make an ethical kill.

It's a family event. That's super cool. Our sons are around the same age, so they were able to buddy up and shoot. We were able to shoot. Shout out to Luke Caudillo as well because he's the one that connected us. He has been on the show a couple of times. I love listening to his show because it's a little bit different than what we do here. It has a lot more comedy. I wish I was as funny as Luke sometimes. He is an interesting guy. He connected us. I called you. It was like a Saturday and you were like, “What are you doing tomorrow?”

It was a Friday or Saturday and I was like, “I'm already headed up. Let's go.”

I was like, “I better get my shit together. I hadn't had my site tape dialed in.” I looked out that day and shoot too bad. I shot a 150 on one of the courses, which is pretty good for me. I have a goal of 200. What's the best that you could shoot on twenty targets?

It’s 240. Even when we had people out for best of the best, which Aron and Luke hosted, the highest score ended up being 216 or 218. Even shooting in the 200s is a good day.

It's hard on that course. There is some stuff where you have to shoot under trees or around trees. There's one where you're standing in a creek. I got hammered by mosquitoes. I'm going to be wearing pants the next time, but it wasn't that bad. They don't bug me that bad. I see you guys always wearing these lightweight pants. I have a lot of jeans in the closet. I have some hunt pants, but I don't want to be the guy out there in full camo. I’m going to look like an idiot.

I pretty much bought the lightweight pants because I'm always out there. It makes sense because it's hot. It can get humid right by that creek, so you can get some lightweight pants and not have the bugs attacking your legs as bad.

What do you like to rock these days?

I’m rocking Pranas.

Is that hunting pants?

They’re more of outdoor hiking pants. I know Aron Snyder has some new pants coming out through Born Primitive. They're pretty sweet. He had them on while he was up there. They're looking amazing. They're meant to be hunting pants, but he has got them in base colors and more earth tones so that you can rock them whenever. You're not rocking that camo out there.

He's the guy that hunts in earth tones, too. He's not your traditional camo guy if I recall. I love his show, too. Shout out to Aron. We’re shouting out to people left and right up here in the community. Aron’s not in the community. He was, but he's moved to Wyoming, right?

He moved up to Riverton with Kifaru. He's a huge influencer for me and a good friend. He is the one who introduced me to Luke Caudillo because I knew him from back shooting at Bear Creek Lake Park.

Is that an outdoor range out there? I’ve never been to that.

It's an outdoor range that’s got hay bales out there. It’s that same thing you were talking about. You're standing on concrete and shooting 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50 yards in a flat area.

I've been on quite a few 3D courses in the state of Colorado. If you were training for tacks specifically, I would recommend American Bowmen. Hands down.

We want to set up for the average everyday hunter to get out there, practice the skill, and get shots that are realistic in the world.

It makes a lot of sense, and that's why I enjoy going out there. I try to go out there twice a week. It doesn't always work out, but it puts me in a good mood. I'm happy.

It can either put you in a good mood or a bad mood depending on your shooting.

If your bow is not set up, I don't suggest going out there because you're probably going to spend $100 on arrows depending on what you're shooting.

We've seen people walk out there with six arrows in their quiver and destroy all six and still walk out with a smile. We’re like, “We did our job.”

If we keep making hunting exclusive, we're going to die out, and it's not going to be a thing that continues.

You guys have a bunch of events coming up, too. This is a private club, right?

That’s correct. It's all membership-based. We usually run about 8 or 9 shoots a year, but we've got some pretty cool events coming up here pretty quick.

There’s at least once a month pretty much in the summer months.

I try and put on two a month depending on who it's with. It depends on the pricing side of things.

Your shoots are awesome because there is either a local archery shop involved or some foundation. You guys do a lot of benefits shoots and stuff like that. You have one coming up here pretty soon. I got an email about it.

HERO Sports is teaming up with us to do a benefit side of things. We've got a couple of giveaways going, and that's going to be on August 7th, 2022. We dropped one of our other shoots that were supposed to be on Father's Day because they had some issues going on that they couldn't do the shoot. We're teaming up with HERO Sports, which Luke Caudillo hooked us up with. We're going to do some giveaways through there, get some things going, and hopefully, get some people there. We’ll charge $40 at the door and get some money to HERO Sports so that they can continue to help veterans.

What is HERO Sports exactly? Do you know what the foundation does?

They help out veterans. They'll take them to UFC fights and other games. They do a lot of sporting events. They set up some baseball teams so that veterans can have a place to link up, connect with each other, and help each other through their situations. They take some veterans on hunts down in Texas, too.

I'm involved with a nonprofit here called River Deep Foundation. I should connect you guys with Bob. He would be good. They do a lot down at Rocky Mountain. Tom does a ton with them at Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear. They're along those lines. They take people and veterans from Craig Hospital. I don’t think that there's any better connection if you're into outdoor stuff. A lot of those guys are into outdoor-type things. I don't think there's any better connection or a way to have a good time without any judgment than going to some of these events. No matter what their disability is, get them shooting a bow, gun, fly fishing, or even a spin rod. It’s so cool.

Nature is relaxing and calming. You can forget about the rest of the world, be out there, be in yourself, and think about life in general.

That's why I enjoy getting on the course by myself sometimes, too. The cell phone doesn't work up there. It’s great. It's 35 minutes from here. It’s an hour from Denver probably depending on where you live.

It takes me about 45 minutes to 1 hour from Highlands Ranch to get up there, so it's not bad at all.

How many acres is American Bowmen?

It’s 52 acres. We’ve got quite a bit of acreage. It keeps growing and going. Membership is good. We do still have some spots available for membership.

There are some caps on it, right?

Yes. We are capped out at 175 at this point. We're right around 150 members.

Thank God I got in.

It's growing quickly. We always have some members drop off every year. We haven't hit a wait list period at all.

Is there any reason that you wouldn't be able to become a member? I've applied to other 3D ranges before. I'm not going to name names, but I haven't had as good a response as I got from you. You invited me with open arms to bring my whole entire family. You spent the morning with us.

That's the way our community should be. We're all trying to get out there and shoot our bows. Let's go then. Let's not make this a hard-to-get-into thing. If we keep making hunting exclusive, we're going to die out. It's not going to be a thing that continues on. We're not going to see our kids hunting, get to take them out hunting, and doing these things that we love.

TMSP 98 | American Bowmen — American Bowmen: We just want to set up for the average everyday hunter to get out there, practice the skill, and get realistic shots in the world.

I couldn't agree more with you. I was mentioning that between our sons. My son is the catalyst for me getting back into hunting seriously because he showed some interest in it. I learned a lot of values. I learned a lot about how to handle adversity on my first hunts.

You’ve been self-disciplined. The adaptability and growth are there.

There is also consistency. I'm sure that there are guys out there that will argue with me that you don't have to. I know multiple archery hunters that are like, “I don’t pick up my bow before August 28th and I'm dialed every year.” I'm like, “Whatever.” I take a little bit of a different approach. The more time that I can spend behind the riser and the more arrows that I can get downrange in a safe spot is important to me. I'll range myself. I might go to American Bowmen and shoot 60 yards at that elk, but I don't know that I would take that shot hunting.

That's a long time for an animal to move and jump string.

Foam targets don't move, right?

No.

You got that whole adrenaline rush dumped that's happening all at the same time.

You're shooting goes downhill on a live animal.

Especially when they're bugling.

You’ve had a long 6 or 7 days out in the backcountry and all of a sudden, it’s right there.

That's another thing I enjoy up there. Right out of the gate, we shot the red side first, right?

Yes.

I always get the two sides confused.

They call them the east and west side because I can't remember.

Red would be west. That makes a lot more sense to me. I'm much more of a directional-driven person. My brain works better that way. That red side, right out of the gate, you're probably at least 200 feet in elevation up and down. The heart rate is going. You mimic some of those things in hunting a little bit that can happen. I tend to hold my breath when I'm doing a spot and stock by accident.

You might be hiking right up, turn around, and take a shot really quickly, or you might be sitting there for a while and waiting for an animal to stand. You still want to get that heart rate up, elevated, and going.

It’s so good. There are different angles. I'm having a blast up there. If somebody was visiting, can they reach out and come on that course?

I’ve had people hit me up and we've gone out and shot. It’s a good thing. It all depends on my scheduling because I do work Monday through Friday, but usually, I can hook them up with somebody. I would go, “Would you guys mind shooting with somebody? They're in town.”

With the whole group of guys up there, I haven't met anybody that isn't awesome. A lot of times, I have the course to myself because I typically go up during the week and early in the morning. It’s that first light type of thing.

I was there and there were probably 10 to 15 people out there. I had to make it a point to wait for some people that I wanted to see to even see them. If you're getting there and going out, a lot of times, you don't run into anybody.

Anyone who picks up their bow a week before the season will not shoot near as well as somebody who practices even once a month throughout the year.

Another thing that is super cool about American Bowmen is I feel safe there. At some of these other archery shoots that I've been to, to hear arrows crashing through the trees and not too far from you does not make me feel comfortable.

We plan it out and then we always are tweaking it. We'll see something that we're like, “Is this the right thing? Do we need to move this target, that target, or these shooting pins to make it safer for people?” We have border lines where even on the separate courses, that shot can't go that way because that's going towards the other course. We’re planning that out to make sure that you have a safe backdrop on every single shot and not shoot towards another one. Even a ricochet can't go towards that.

That's super important. I feel safe whenever I'm up there, especially if nobody's on the course. If I'm the first guy to put up the flag, it feels pretty good.

Even when we left and there was somebody out there, we wouldn't have known had there not been a sign-in book or some new car in the parking lot.

You guys have a whole system that comes along with that. There are some responsibilities there, too. If you're a member, you have to be conscious of that and of other people. You don't want to be going through the course backward.

We even have a rule that if you're looking for an arrow that's behind a target, you're putting your bow in front of that target so that somebody sees your bow sitting there.

That makes a lot of sense though. It’s an awesome spot. I urge anybody. If you have the time or you have any interest in archery, go to one of these awesome archery shops that we have here in town like Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear. I highly recommend it to anybody that's getting into it. You can get set up with whatever bow you want there. They will let you shoot and try some different stuff. The coaching is world-class with the Clums and anybody else down there. There’s Alex and Danny. Jerry is awesome down there, too, for kids. I've taken my son down. Those guys are incredible down there.

You’ve got some other greats out there, too. No Limits with Phil Mendoza. Beau is there. Jason is there. You've got Bear Creek, which is a bunch of good group of guys too with Dave running that shop.

There are some awesome shooters in there, too.

The Denver area has a good group of shops. We can't complain there. A lot of times, it's picking which one you like or which one's closer to you and going into those shops.

They all carry different bows and stuff. There are a couple of different things to archery here too that you need to consider if you're diving into it. You shoot traditionally. You made the switch in the last several months. There are all these different terms. I know what I like to shoot and what I have fun shooting. I don't know the technical terms here, but yours would be considered a bare bow because there are no sights. All you have on your bow is a quiver, string, some limbs, and a riser. That's it.

I have no sight or anything like that. When I was shooting compound, it started to get to be a chore because I was shooting so well and it wasn't difficult anymore. When I did make the switch to recurve, it was a lot more difficult. If you mess up, that arrow's going somewhere else.

My bow is so mechanical. I have a trigger release. I got adjustable sight that I can dial. When I range at target and it says 61 yards, I set my sight at 61. There are all these different things out there. I shot fixed pin for a lot of years. I still toss that around in my head. I liked hunting with a fixed pin better because it's less adjustment. It's fewer moving parts. There's all that shit that gets in the way. If I ran up on a bull, he's 40 yards, and my pin is set at twenty, I'm not going to know what to do until I adjust that sight. There's some time involved. It might be half a second.

A half a second can mean a shot or a no shot. I used to do a five-pin slider. I had that at 20, 30, 40, 50, or 60, and then could still slide out if I needed to follow up.

I don't even know what my sight is. This is this bad. It's the Hogg Father. I don't know who makes it.

It’s Spot Hogg then.

I love that for sight. I got the dual pin, which is cool because then, you have two dials on there. If I'm set on my twenty, the way with my arrow way and bow shoots, it is pretty awesome because that next pin is 35.

You’ve got a good spread there. If you get good enough, you can sit and pin gap it. That would mean you're 29 is probably right about that middle sight of things. You can put the animal right between those two.

I like that double pin. I've hunted with it for one year and I haven't had any issues, but I didn't bag an elk in 2021. That's typically where I have trouble. Where I hunt deer is private. It’s not as skittish. I have a little bit more time to make corrections. I have missed elk with my arrow. I'm not going to lie about that, but I've missed shots because I wasn't prepared, ready, or set up. Maybe you draw and they blow out, and then you don't have a shot.

Sometimes, you've got such a small window of opportunity to make it happen that it can go quickly.

That's one thing I noticed shooting with you earlier and the couple of times that we've shot together. I roll up to the target. My pin’s a bit further back than yours, but it’s the setup time. I pull out the range finder, look, and then got a dial on my sight. I knock my arrow, and then I have my whole shot mantra. I was coached well. When I'm with a trad guy, I don't feel rushed, but I feel like I'm taking a lot of time. Is it noticeable? Do you hate shooting with a compound guy? You can say it. I know we’re friends.

Not really. It takes time. If you go through with a couple of recurve guys, three recurve guys can be quicker than one compound guy going through that course.

You guys all shoot traditionally. My son’s one up on me, too, on the traditional side. I've given him the out multiple times like, “Do you want to shoot a compound? I have this old one. It can adjust down.” He could shoot my backup bow, but he's sticking to the trad, which is super cool. What made you make that switch?

I had already been debating that switch because it was getting to be a chore shooting a compound. I had quite a few guys hand me their recurve to shoot at the range. It was a lot more fun. It had a lot more intensity to it, thinking about your shot and focusing on your aim. I fell in love with that side of things. I was planning on making the switch, but I ended up breaking my compound bow out hunting. It forced me into the spot where I was buying a bow. It was either to buy another compound, which was becoming a chore or buy a recurve and fall in love with archery.

You made that switch during September 2021, the hunting season.

I broke my bow on my second day out. I slipped in a creek and hit my string up against a rock. I snapped the string and cracked both limbs. It was game over.

What were you shooting before?

I was shooting a Hoyt.

Is that one of the carbon bows?

No. It was an aluminum bow. It's no fault to the bow itself. It's pretty much like dry firing it when you snap that string. Any bow is not going to stand up to that well.

You must've been pissed off.

That was a long five-hour drive home.

When you made the switch, did you stop hunting or did you get dialed in?

I knew that I wasn't proficient enough to go hunting that season. I still had 6 or 7 days off. I was like, “There's no way I can take this thing out and ethically try.”

That's good on you, too. I find it hard to believe that somebody can pick up their bow a week before hunting season and be confident in a shot.

I guarantee that anyone who picks up their bow a week before the season is not going to shoot near as well as somebody who practices even once a month throughout the year. There's no way.

I don't think he can. For me, I try to shoot daily. It doesn't always happen, but it's important to me. From the mental aspect, what archery does for me is decompression. Some people meditate. Some people go to yoga class, but that is my outlet to shut the brain off. You don't have to be a hunter to pick up a bow either. There are so many awesome archery shops, 3D courses, and 3D competitions.

There are even people who are shooting paper that is looking for a ten spot. We have some of those members out there that don't go hunting but love the sport of archery. Even if you're a person who doesn't want to go hunting and wants to come to join the club, we're open to that. We love that because it's about the love of archery, not necessarily the love of hunting.

That's important, too. I urge anybody to do it because I get so much enjoyment out of it. I'm passionate about it. That is a big part of me being happy or not. It got to the point where I bought a travel case.

Is it to bring your bow?

Hunting is a fun journey. It's an experience regardless of whether you harvest an animal or not.

Yes. If I don't shoot weekly at least 60 arrows a week, I have to. I like to get 60 arrows a day if I can at a time.

It affects your mood. It's that relaxation period and focusing on one thing.

I couldn't agree more. Diving back into the military side of stuff, what I found is a lot of guys make that transition from the military to hunting, whether it's with a rifle or bow. A lot of guys could dive into that archery world because it is that whole sense of having all your gear dialed, being organized, and having discipline.

Hunting is almost like a mission. I know you can't compare the two because you're not getting shot back at or there are no high stakes. You're probably not going in a helicopter. Would that make it that much fun? We were chatting that up on the range. I was asking you about a bison hunt. I strictly want to do it for the meat. I'm intrigued because Donny Dust got to go do it primitively with an atlatl on stuff.

It is still amazing.

I love the meat. It’s super cool. Not only that, but he processed the whole thing with one of these stones points.

It is crazy to think about.

Think about how much goes into cutting up an elk with a sharp knife. I have these amazing half-face blades that my buddy, Andy Arrabito, makes. They're so sharp and nice to use, but the stone points are on the next level.

It's a crazy jump.

I'm going to try to get Donny out to the course with your blessing. I'm going to dial it back here for a minute because I'm getting excited talking about all this. We were talking about how I would like to go on a bison hunt. You mentioned going on a bison hunt somewhere up in Alaska or Canada, which would be super cool. I'm not knocking this, but it's not my flavor to go out to the ranch and drive out there side by side.

Don't forget the tractor to pick it up.

There you go. It’s that thing. As much as I want the meat, I'm dibble dabbling with that because I would like to get into a world in this area and hunt elk.

Usually, I go five miles back in, try to tent it up, and go. It makes it a fun journey. It’s an experience regardless of whether you harvest an animal or not.

In your hunt trips and experience, are you typically backpack hunting? Do you have a base camp? Typically, what I do is we'll have a base camp. I'm not going to lie. My camper might be there sometimes, but then from there, we'll spike camp out. If you're going twelve miles back, you don't want to be making that journey every day. It takes a ton of time. A lot of times, it's at elevation.

We throw everything on our back and go. It is fantastic because you wake up 30 to 45 minutes before the sun rises. You get out to your spot and start glassing. You’re glassing as soon as sunlight comes up. You're not worried about hiking or anything like that. It makes it a lot more enjoyable for me. You're way back in there. It's not quite as comfortable as it would be in a camper, but there's something about it that’s serene to me.

It is great. I enjoy those times that I've spent out where it's like, “I'm not going back to base camp.” It's nice to have that to fall back, too. You keep one up on me here in traditional archery. That's awesome.

There have been some miserable times out there. I’m not going to lie. One year, my friend and I got poured on. We were drenched, and it was a cold night.

What's in your backpack when you're out?

Usually, it's a sleeping bag, clothes, and food. That's about it. Those are the bare essentials, and then I'll carry my glass and my bow.

No tent?

American Bowmen: You've got such a small window of opportunity to actually make a shot happen. It can go quickly.

We'll do a tent, but usually, when we get there, we'll set up our camp, and then that thing stays up until we leave.

Do you get to go out for a week at a time?

Usually, I schedule it for eight days. We'll be out there for eight days with food on our back and go.

I've scheduled three weeks off, but we'll see. I can guarantee there won't be any episode coming out in September 2022.

As there shouldn't be. That time is dedicated to hunting.

There were a couple of times when I had a sponsor hit me up. They were out here on an elk hunt. I was like, “I better go back.” I’m letting them know that September 2022 is out. I’m sorry. That's the plan, so we'll see. 2021 got cut way too short for me between everything. The nice thing is some of my deer tags go all the way to November. They’re the leftover deer tag that I get. That's nice that I can concentrate on elk and then dial it back.

Usually, I like to join the two up. I'll have my elk tag, but I always put my deer tag in the same area. I never focus on the deer, but if there happens to be a deer standing there, it might be getting a narrow flung at it.

How often does that happen? I can't count the times that I've been able, in the last few years, to shoot a moose.

The moose population in Colorado is fantastic.

It’s so awesome. I'm hoping that doesn't change here in the next couple of years.

It might, especially with wolves possibly coming in. It's going to change our dynamic quite a bit.

That's a big thing. This whole legislative thing of trying to manage wildlife or what they think they're doing is not even managing wildlife.

It’s ballot box biology.

It's based on whether you think an animal should be there or not. They're not looking at science. We've had Colorado Parks and Wildlife and multiple biologists in and they all say the same thing. It's all about managing populations. I'm hoping that doesn't change. You and I were talking about this earlier too. Howl for Wildlife is amazing.

We've done an episode with Charles and we plan to do more with him in the future. It shows what these ballot initiatives are. No matter which way you're voting, you can go there and get some logical information. It's easy to contact your local senators, or even if you're out of state. I have emailed senators in different states on different situations because they're asinine to me. I'm not afraid to say it.

Look at some of the stuff that they're bringing up even in other states. Eventually, other states are going to follow suit. If we don't fight that right at the beginning, other states are going to continue to follow suit. We will lose our hunting rights if we continue down a path.

That's one of the coolest things about Howl for Wildlife. You can get ahead of it before it even goes to the ballot box. I wish some of these initiatives would have been in place when they were voting on wolves. It was 51% to 49%. It was so razor-thin close.

They're even talking about getting rid of the Pittman-Robertson, which is crazy. A lot of the dollars that go into wildlife conservation comes from that.

It’s the backbone of it.

That was started many years ago.

We're all enjoying these lands. We've got to keep these lands here for the next generations.

That's wild.

Anything that could be used for that hunting world is going towards this Pittman-Robertson Act and that's going directly back into conservation in the US. To get rid of that, we're going to lose a lot of our dollars.

That helps with game management, to pay more biologists, and to have better wildlife populations.

It's not only that, but it's also helping conserve those federal lands that everyone is enjoying. You're going mountain biking on those lands. You're going hiking out on those lands. People are doing photography on those lands. You're not looking at just affecting hunting by taking away Pittman-Robertson. You're affecting the land itself.

I always thought that they should blanket it a little bit more. Maybe start another one for people that are backpacking. Like anything that you buy at REI, it would be awesome if there was some tax on that to put back into the conservation side, whether you're hunting or not, right?

That’s right. We're all enjoying these lands and we've got to keep these lands here for the next generations.

That’s one of the things I love about Colorado. About 40% of the state is public land, which is wild. How much I and my family use it, people that I know that come from out of state use it, and places that I can send people is incredible.

It’s 36%. That’s still close to 40%. That’s a huge chunk. You can get lost in a lot of the wilderness areas. You can get out there and see nobody for days at a time.

It is great. A lot of the search and rescue stuff that we've had in here, like Alpine Search and Rescue, they’re all volunteer-based. They get some of their funding from some of that federal money that's coming in the Pittman-Robertson. They get some of their funding from some of those spots. Think about if you're in the backcountry and you have an issue with one of your kids or yourself.

Every hunting tag that's sold comes with a search and rescue fee. They're even getting money off of the hunting tags. Even if it's a hiker loss, they're dipping into that money. Your hunting side of things is still funding a lot of search and rescues and stuff like that that can help anyone out.

Check out Howl for Wildlife. They're great. No matter what side of the fence you're on, it's not party-driven. It's strictly based on wildlife, facts, and what's happening on a worldwide level. They don't just cover stuff in the US. It's worldwide. I don't know if you've checked out Blood Origins.

I have not.

They’re super awesome. They cover a lot of these issues, too. They are tight with Charles. I know those two guys are tight. The Blood Origins podcast is great. It's another one that's doing amazing stuff for conservation. I appreciate what they're doing, and they're doing it worldwide as well. Those are two super awesome spots to get information if you're interested in what's going on.

It’s weird. A lot of these things don't take precedence at the ballot box. It's something that's slipped in there sometimes, or it may not be. It’s still got to go through the judicial system to get onto a ballot or even be proposed, but there are so many issues. All the division that we have in the country from the left and the right, who's paying attention to nobody but hunters? How many hunters do you know that voice their opinions? It's hard for them to find the time. These are the blue-collar people in the US that have full-time jobs and don't have time to pay attention to every little thing. They're spending most of their time outdoors.

They’re disconnecting from the world. They are usually turning their phones off and getting out there in the middle of nowhere, or they don't even have service where they're going.

It's important, too, as hunters or outdoors persons to pay attention to some of these things. I never remember this being an issue when I was a kid.

Think about it. In 1992 is when they outlawed spring bear hunting. That was when we were both kids and couldn't vote. That's something that we may never get back. They're having so many issues with black bears.

It's insane.

If we would've kept that season, that would have helped in that side of things.

It's wild because you can pretty much get an add-on bear tag in any area. There are no questions asked. There’s no draw. That's how bad the population is. We're even seeing it here. I would consider this a suburban mountain. Evergreen is very much that. There are not a ton of people that live here, but 9,000 is a lot for this area.

American Bowmen: You have to think about your shot and focus on your aim and everything.

There's a lot more in this area than when we were kids.

I have a bear in our neighborhood every night. It’s guaranteed. The private land that I hunt on is 350 acres. When we're in there, it’s more dangerous than being in a wilderness area because these bears are so used to people and their food source. They’re not scared of anything. The more that we can get in front of stuff like that, it’s going to be a safer place if you're a backpacker or your kids are out playing at night.

I don't let my kids play in our front yard at dusk unless I'm out there with them. It's that way. I know that we have cats. We've seen cats come through my yard, too. We are talking about a 120-pound animal that's a killer. It's very uncommon and maybe I'm being overprotective. I don't want to be that helicopter parent, but I also let Tyler climb up a 40-foot cliff and make a shot on a ram, too.

There's that other side we have seen where a mountain lion has grabbed a kid in this area up in Bailey, so it's not unheard of.

That was off of a trampoline, too, wasn't it?

I don't remember, but that’s a ballsy move, too. There were other kids around.

We've had Scott Murdoch in from Colorado Parks and Wildlife. He has talked about 95% of the attacks are on people that are smaller in stature, so kids or dogs. They're not going to try to take a fat ass down if my kids are playing around. You cannot outrun the thing. There's no way.

They're going way too quick.

A cheetah runs 72 miles an hour.

A mountain lion is sitting up in a tree half the time. You're not going to see him.

They're super quiet. All the time that I've spent as a kid growing up here, being in the backcountry, hunting, doing whatever, and camping, I've cut tracks quite a few times, but I don't think I've ever seen one in the backcountry on my own. If there's a dog involved and you're tracking them, that’s about the only way. They're so elusive. We know the population here is dense, especially down by Deckers. Some of those areas down there are insane. The size of the cats that are down there.

It's because their food source is phenomenal.

Those are some big cats. That makes me nervous. That's one of the things that I start helicopter parenting on.

I don't know if you can even call that helicopter parenting or even being smart.

It’s being conscious. It's living with wildlife. You grew up here. Let's dive into your background a little bit.

I grew up in Southwest Denver. My grandparents had a cabin up here in evergreen, so I was always out in the mountains, always out roaming. I would even go get lost for 2 to 3 hours and my parents didn't care. They were like, “We’ll see you later.” I was always running around in the mountains and doing my thing.

I remember as a kid, I would tell my mom, “I'm going to go camping for the weekend.” It was like, “Make sure you're back by Sunday because you got to go to school on Monday morning.” I was maybe 9, 10, or 11 years old. We were out camping. Sometimes, we lied. Sometimes, we were riding our BMX bikes down to Red Rocks because the Grateful Dead was playing. We could see naked hippie chicks, but we were still camping down there.

I feel like those animals are traveling to the spots for different food sources and then you outlaw hunting on some of them, like bears. It's not completely outlawed, but you take away an entire hunting season, which animals are hard enough to hunt anyways. If you look at elk hunting, the success rates are low. I want to say it's maybe 20%. Guys maybe fill their tags a year.

Archery is even lower at that point in time because archery is 10%.

That is insane. For every ten years, you should be killing an elk. That doesn't account for the savages like Aron Snyder, Cameron Hanes, or somebody up there that are killing an elk every year. 10% is pretty insane. That is super minimal. That makes a lot of sense why I didn't kill an elk in 2021. You spent a lot of time up here. Have you lived anywhere else outside of the state?

If you're taking a resource from the land, at least take as much as you can.

No. I moved out of Southwest Denver into Jefferson County. Shortly after we had our son, we moved up here to Pine. We've lived in this area our whole lives. My wife grew up here as well.

It's very seldom that you run into people that have been in Colorado that long. Growing up as a kid, were you a hunter then?

My dad always took me out hunting. He was always using a muzzleloader or rifle. I only switched to archery because I worked at a tire shop. In the wintertime, October or November is your busiest time of year, so you can't get any time off. I'm like, well, “If I do archery, I can go a month earlier before our busy season and we can go.” That’s why I switched to archery because it was September. We're not in that October or November when everyone's getting winter tires put on. I fell in love with archery.

How long have you been in archery?

I've been shooting archery for six years. It’s not a long time compared to a lot of people, but I'm dedicated to it. I’m usually shooting every weekend.

You're up there all the time. What was the first hunt that you remember as a kid? How old were you when you had your first big game hunt?

I was nine when I went out with my dad one year. We went out muzzle loading. It was him and a whole bunch of his buddies. My first experience was elk. We were all sitting there and relaxing. Being a young kid all entertained, excited, and jacked up, I was sitting there with the binos continuously glassing and looking in the trees. I looked at my dad and go, “There's elk in the trees.” He's like, “There's not. Stop it.”

He and one of my uncles were sitting there calling back and forth. They were probably 500 yards away from each other. My dad was cow calling and my uncle was bugling. I'm like, “There's elk in the trees.” Sure enough, 30 minutes later, here steps out a cow elk. He was like, “Okay.” The elk was 75 yards away from us. He got up and shot. We missed, but all of a sudden, the elk woods exploded. We had probably 70 or 80 elk running past us at this point in time. It was game over from there.

There is something about being in the backcountry, the outdoors, or whatever you want to call it. That time of year is majestic to me to hear those bugles and all that stuff and to be around that. I didn't grow up with a dad, but I had a similar type of thing. I wasn't as onto the glassing as you were. I was along for the ride. These guys are pretty proficient bow hunters. They have been for a long time. I was out with my uncles. Thank God for them because I fell into it. They're the guys that bought me my first bow. I have so much to be grateful for to have two men like that to show me around.

I also have my grandfather as well. He wasn't much of a bow hunter. Although he did bow hunt a little bit. I need to dive into it more with him. He's still alive, which is super awesome. We were a tight-knit family. September was always that time of year when they were out hunting. They were gracious enough to take me along as a kid. What an eye-opening experience to be out. It was so cool as a kid, too. I was always intrigued by military stuff even as a kid growing up and watching Rambo.

These guys are so awesome at calling. I remember bulls coming in and raking in ten yards from us. That is a scary thing, especially from however old I was. They are elk fanatics that even if we weren't hunting around here and we saw elk, we'd stop and go mess with them a little bit. We’d do a little bit of calling. I don't know if it's legal but we’d get out there in the middle of them and have some fun. We weren't hunting, but just out there doing the same thing as if you were hunting. It was a little bit different here. There weren't as many properties or fences. Everybody knew each other, so we had permission to go onto a lot of private spots. We were having fun.

My grandparents had that cabin in Evergreen. Behind that were 150 acres. We never saw anyone back on there and we'd always go there. We eventually got kicked off of that property because someone else had bought it. It’s not the same.

It's changed a lot. I've been trying to draw a tag for a certain area. I used to get it every other year. I'm six years in and I still haven't drawn a tag that I used to hunt all the time. I've had happened the same thing with my buddy, Mark Montoya. He grew up here down south around the Telluride area. He's like, “I draw a tag once every ten years now. I used to draw every year.” His dad and his brothers go out, so it's a family thing. He's like, “I don't know if my dad can go on another hunt.” It's disheartening being here for this long and then seeing that.

I understand that there's a management side to it. The frequency is not the same. At the same time, I also think that it's valuable to everybody because I know what it does for me and how it makes me feel. Dive in a little bit more into your background. Do you remember the first time that you saw a big game animal go down and the whole process of field dressing it? Was that a shock to you or were you all in? That was a shock to me. I was like, “What happened? This is insane.”

I was all in. I ended up playing football in high school, so all my hunting went away. When I hit eighteen, I went out antelope hunting and it was an instant. I shot an animal, got in there, got it out, skinned it, got it in the cooler, and went home. Ever since then, it's been the same thing.

I was a little bit younger. Maybe I was ten years younger the first time I saw that and was handed a heart in the process. I'm so fortunate with the guys that taught me because they are this storybook hunter that I inspire to be. These guys are so good. My one uncle that still lives here in the area got a young buck. He was like, “We're taking every bit of meat, like rib meat and neck meat. It's all going. Take as much as you can.” That's an important part. You legally have to take a certain amount of meat.

It’s legally all four quarters. The back straps and the tenderloins, you legally have to take.

If you leave any of that behind, there's a fine.

It’s a waste and they may fine you for it.

That's how it should be, too.

American Bowmen: Even if you're a person who doesn't want to go hunting and want to join the club, we're open to that. We love that because it's about the love of archery, not necessarily the love of hunting.

You're taking a resource from a land. At least take as much as you can. They don't consider neck meat, but you're leaving a lot there if you don't take the rest of the neck.

There are different ways too. People always say it's tough. With all these chefs that we've had on, there is so much information out there that's in the palm of your hand. We have a Traeger and they have game recipes on the Traeger app. You don't even have to own a Traeger grill.

You don't have to be that good of a chef. Ground that stuff up into a burger and have some hamburgers. Even if it's tough, once you grind it, it's going to be perfect for eating.

I hold a huge value on that, but a lot of that was how I was raised. I've said this multiple times. For me, I don't think that there was any better way. I grew up on the most violent movies you could watch as a kid. It was acceptable at the time. When I grew up in the 1980s, it was okay for your kid that was 8 or 9 years old to watch a rated-R movie where guys were killing each other, movies like First Blood and Terminator. I was always infatuated with the military and to get all camoed up and then go out there.

I might have been desensitized to it from a Hollywood standpoint, but the first time seeing that much blood in one spot, an animal expire in front of you, and then the whole process you get into, the smell, and the processing of that animal to the point where we were back far enough that we were boning this thing out. We’re not even quartering it.

You’re trying to make it as light as possible.

It’s a butchering process out there. To see all that go down and then to still be able to put it down on a plate and enjoy it, I at least made that connection where some people get disconnected. They get grossed out and then can't eat it because that's mentally in there. Seeing it firsthand, I don't think that you ever do. It makes you appreciate it.

It tastes better once you work hard for it, too.

I think about that all the time. I don't let my family waste it. We at least feed it to the dog if there are some scraps left. A lot of times in September, especially if I'm doing it myself, I don't take the time to cut a lot of that sinew off. We are making sure it's clean, packaging it, and putting it in the freezer. I'll then let it thaw and trim it off. I'll turn around and cook that for the dog. I don't even let any of that go to waste. Somebody is going to eat it.

I hold value to that animal so much. It’s a way to honor him. Seeing that as a kid for the first time was eye-opening. It was a shock value to me. The emotions that I went through, how scared I was, how grossed out I was, and how much I felt connected, that entire process made me a better person. Maybe I'm getting too spiritual here, but I don't care. This is my show. It made me more connected to putting a value on a life and being more compassionate about life in general.

It’s that understanding of where everything came from and being grateful for what's on your table.

Growing up with a single mom was a huge thing. That's what made me continue to hunt. We might have been on government cheese and milk if we didn't have elk steak or deer steak.

We haven't bought ground beef in four years. The amount of meat that we can get and continue to hold to ourselves and eat is much cleaner meat.

I cannot bring myself to go to the grocery store and buy meat that’s in Styrofoam. We do have to occasionally, but even then, I'm so picky when it comes to it. I am spending that extra money to get better quality. Even that, you don't know what it's been through. I was driving down 285 and I was blown by the stock trailers. The entire stretch of 285 from Turkey Creek down to C-470 was full of stock trailers. I know exactly where they were going. It smelled horrid. I was thinking, “My God.”

If you've ever seen the whole entire processing deal, that’s what has made me a hunter, honestly. I would much rather have everything that I've touched clean the way I wanted it clean. I even have a hard time taking my animals to a game processor. I go to certain ones, but I don't feel the same. I don't know that they're cleaning the burger grinder.

You don’t know if it is the way you need it cleaned, how often they're cleaning their tools, or taking care of things. There are good processors out there, and you want to make sure before you take it to a processor. I'm the same way. I've ground up the majority of my animals. I've done one time where I had it processed because I didn't have time. I wasn't happy with the turnout either. I don't think they took as much care as I did.

Hair is one thing that drives me insane. I take my animals down super clean. There is not a hair on a quarter. That's the wild thing, too. It's the whole process. You pull in with your truck and there are guys in line because it's hunting season. Some of the guys that do not care drive me a little bit insane on that level. They throw it in the back of a truck with hair on everything.

They’re not even skinning it out there. I've heard stories of people not even gutting their animals before they bring them there. it's like, “How long has that thing been sitting in the back of your truck driving from wherever you drove from to get it here with guts inside of it?”

There's an ethic in that, too. There’s something to that. Also, it's going to taint the meat. The longer you let it sit is not good. You need to get after it whether it's in the middle of the night or early in the morning.

Your first priority should be taking care of that meat.

We have to understand where everything came from and be grateful for what's on our table.

That’s the way to honor the animal, too. Typically, I only do this when it's super warm because I'm concerned about the meat spoiling. That's important to me. When I drop my stuff off, the guys are like, “Thank you so much.” They're thanking me that I took the time to quarter it, clean it, and make sure it looked great. I wonder how often they see stuff that’s nasty.

You then got to worry if they mix in anything with yours.

That's it. I’m like, “Are you making all the burgers together? Am I getting somebody else's deer that's mixed with my deer?”

They didn’t take that level of care.

That's important to me, too. I would suggest vetting any of those spots you're going to take. There used to be some smaller businesses up here. They were local butchers. If you knew them, they would process your stuff for you. You could take your stuff in there and have it ground or whatever you want it to have done. All those guys have gone away. It's turned much more into an industrial thing because they have been run out by these bigger art galleries or whatever else. I remember growing up here. There are not any of those businesses around anymore. They wouldn't be well-received in the community either because of politics.

It’s a different community up here.

Growing up here and seeing the influx in people, I like to ask locals this a lot. This applies to much more than just Colorado. It could be any mountain region, whether you're living in the Alps or in the middle of Texas. What are some of the common things that you've noticed that people could be doing better from a standpoint of treating these public spaces with respect and not trashing them? We have all different stuff come up, but what's something that gets in your skin?

Hanging Lake is a great example of that where people were defacing rocks and poisoning that pool of water. It destroyed that landscape to where the base shut it down at one point in time. They were busing people in where you used to be able to go park in the parking lot and hike up there.

Was it all the love letters on the rocks?

There were letters on the rocks that they had to clean up. That pool of water is pretty self-sustained, but when you start introducing outside influences, like people getting in the pool and leaving trash there, it destroyed that ecosystem to the point where it was so fragile that they couldn't let people up there. They were worried about that side of things.

Is it shut down?

I don’t know if they've opened it back up yet or not.

It's been years since I've been up there. I find myself being a native. I hate using that term. We bring it up all the time. Growing up in Colorado and going to all those spots as a kid, I avoid them now, which is sad. I want my kids to experience the same thing, but they're not. Maybe there's a waiting system. Some of these spots outside of Aspen, I forget what the hot springs are up there. You have to have a permit to go up there. It is crazy, but I get why they're doing it at the same time. The population has tripled here in the last couple of years. That's insane.

I've had some fishing spots that I've gone to for years. The last time we went, we took out an entire King Sooper's bag of trash. It's like, “What are you people doing? Why are you leaving your trash here?” That irritates me on a personal level because I grew up of, “If you bring that sucker in, you better be bringing it back out.”

Let’s say the vast majority, 75% of them, respect the outdoors. They're not throwing hatchets into trees and doing all the shit that you do while you're camping. They're out there to enjoy nature and trying to be respectful of it, but it goes a little bit step further. Bring something that will contain your trash better than a trash bag. We all know how easy it is to rip a trash bag.

If you're out there in the animals’ territory and they can get an easy meal, whether it's a squirrel, bird, chipmunk, or bear, they're going to drag that down the hill. They're probably going to go to a water source at some point. This is probably going to end up in the water, and then who knows where it ends up or where the wind starts to blow it around? It’s about being prepared. Take that extra step. Buy a trash can with a locking lid and put it in the back of your truck.

You can buy a Rubbermaid tote.

You can even go as far as hanging it, but if it's in a plastic bag, it's going to do no good. You got to have something to secure all a little bit better than that. Those are little steps of stuff that people can do and think ahead to the bigger picture. There's no way that a thin piece of plastic is going to protect your trash. It goes a step further. For example, using toilet paper. I can't tell you how many times I've been so far back and I find a pile of human crap with toilet paper piled on top of it. I was like, “You missed the memo about how to do this.” It's educating on how to properly do stuff.

A lot of people go out there and lack education. I was always taught those ethics from a young age. I was fortunate to have those father figures and people that cared enough about this space and the land around us. No matter where you're at, all these rules apply, whether you're in a city park or not. You're not going to go take a dump in the city park and leave it there. At least clean it up.

Leave it in the middle of the woods. Do something to take care of it.

There are trash cans everywhere out there, so be prepared to take your own shit out if you have to.

Even your wrappers. It’s something as simple as putting it back in the bag.

I brought this up with Mark in our last couple of episodes ago. He brought up a good point. He was talking about as a kid growing up here and driving up by 70. It used to be Evergreen or Pines. I never noticed it until I was driving down the hill. I had to drive down every day to take my daughter to ballet camp, so I'm as guilty as anybody. The amount of dead trees from car exhaust and emissions is crazy. We're always in a red flag warning down the hill. It's insane.

He brought up a crazy notion that probably wouldn't work, but I could see where he was going with it. He was like, “Turn I-70 into a toll road. Everybody has to pay a toll.” If you're not going to go out and do something and connect with nature, there's no point in driving to go see the mountains. That was his point. I could get it if you're disabled or handicapped and you can't get out. Go out and experience it however you can, but try to be conscious of that a little bit, too. I feel like that was an eye-opener for me.

He said it on here firsthand, “Think about this before you're making your Costco runs. Do I need this?” That's big picture-type stuff, but we're having a much bigger impact on the environment from that standpoint than the Dorito bag floating down the river. It's way worse. It’s something that I thought was cool off the grid from what people normally save. People normally save trash, and that's a great point, too.

Especially as a photographer in this pristine aspen grove, I'm trying to capture nature for what it is. That’s my whole premise with Earth+Iron+Society. There is earth, and then there's iron, which is super cool, that is molded. What we have evolved as a population or a species, that’s how we started waging wars. In some of my world travels, I was able to see blacksmith work, which I'm super intrigued by and how artistic it is, and what influence those guys had on wars.

There is also society. It’s what we've become. I try to capture in that earth category, so no there is human influence or power lines. I'll be damned if I have a perfect shot of an entire aspen grove where there's not, “Sam loves Lucy,” carved into the side of it or, “Fuck you.” Who is angry enough in the middle of an aspen grove to carve, “Fuck,” into the middle of the tree? I've paid more attention to it. That's been an eye-opener for me trying to shoot in those realms and capture nature. It's nearly impossible. If you look at the photos that I have compared to what I would put out for publication, it's few and far between. The only place you get is the backcountry.

You’ve got to get back up in there.

It’s almost impossible. It has made me appreciate that a little bit more, take in the moment, and connect with nature a little bit more. I think about it as Lewis and Clark were coming across the US. Could you imagine them stepping into a glacier or the first time they saw a grizzly bear? They’re like, “What? How fast do I have to run to get away from this?”

As they were crossing, there was elk across the plains. Could you imagine watching hundreds of elk crossing around the plains?

Have you ever seen any of those big herds in South Park, Colorado sometimes in the winter where it's 5,000 head?

All you see is a sea of elk.

That's insane.

It's great though. It goes back to what we were talking about earlier about the moose. You're seeing a lot more moose. You're seeing a lot more stuff like that. We are doing a good job, but we could do a lot better.

How old are you?

I'm 33.

I'm in my 40s. I got ten years on you. As a kid growing up here, there were no moose. There might have been 1 or 2 stragglers. That is something where we are letting biologists manage that population and re-introduce animals that should be here. This is a great habitat for moose or anywhere in Colorado. Look what they've done with it.

There hasn't been a hunting trip in the couple of years that I've gone on that I haven't seen a moose.

Me included.

That is fantastic.

We need to be conservationists along with hunting and focus on animal populations, the environment, and taking care of the world that we live in.

In Elk Country, you're going to run into moose. That’s super cool. Hopefully, it's not a big bull. Last hunting season in 2021, my brother and I went in. We were going to an open area. We were there 1 or 2 days before. I'm used to seeing moose, but not forever in Colorado, and I've been hunting for a long time. We went in. We were driving the road and watching for elk tracks. It's a four-wheel drive trail. We were trying to figure out where elks were moving and going into our camp. We come up on this mud puddle and it is covered in blood. There were hunters up there.

Instantly, my red meter went through the roof. I was like, “Somebody poached an elk,” because there were elk tracks in that same mud puddle. They had to. This was August 29th, 2021. There hasn't been any hunting until September 1st, 2021. We were two days early. We went around the corner and ended up talking to another guy. We were like, “Did you see any hunter?” I was ready to call one of the game wardens that I knew, like, “Somebody poached an elk up here.” He's like, “It was a big bull moose that was shedding out of his velvet.” It looked like a blood bath.

They're such massive creatures. I've had times where I'm eighteen yards away and watched them walk through the forest like it was nothing. I walked over to where they were walking and it is chest height deadfall throughout there.

They don't even get as big here as they do up in Alaska or Canada. Some of those moose up there are huge. I think that's the Sasquatch sightings. There have been times when I've been in the trees and even my dog whimpered. She's not scared of much, but she was scared shitless. You see this black thing through the trees and you can't make it out.

They’re so quiet.

They're such big animals. Even the foam target that we were shooting, the thoracic cavity of a moose is half the table. It’s wild, but I'm glad to have them back. I wonder. Have you been putting in for a moose tag at all?

Yes, I have.

I haven't yet. Do you know what the drawing process is on that and how long it takes?

With moose, goat, and sheep, it's three years that you have to put in that you're not in the draw. After those three years, you get put into where you can get that tag awarded to you. It's not a preference point style like elk and deer are. You're in the drawing once you get those three years in.

It’s a true lottery system at that.

It is a little weighted with how many points you have in, but you still have a chance after those three years.

Colorado’s got it dialed when it comes to all that stuff there. They're pretty on top of it.

You also talked about that point creep side of things where it might take 1 or 2 years. Now, it's taking 5, 6, or 7 years.

That's managing the population though. Think about how popular hunting has got. Even in the last few years, I've seen a drastic increase. This is no knock on any of these guys, but you have all these amazing hunters that are sharing information. Somebody might be inspired to go hunt by tuning in to this show.

You’ve got a lot of onset hunters, which is great and fantastic. A lot of people being aware of where their meat and food are coming from and getting involved in it from that aspect is a fantastic thing because that's what's going to keep the sport alive.

I agree with you. With the influx that we're seeing, that's why it's longer to get into these spaces. A lot of their habitat's changing, too. We have way less water here than we ever had. That drastically changes stuff. I would imagine that affects elk populations, especially in certain areas. In the particular area that I put in, one reason why I've been putting it in there is there are not a lot of water sources.

What animals are there? It’s a double-edged sword. They're doing a pretty decent job with it. I would say the one criticism that I have if I was going to give them any is more education on how to be an ethical and proper hunter. I know that your kid went through the Hunter Safety Course. Were they doing anything in there that was ethical?

No. They do a lot of the rules and regulations. I don't think that they have the time side of things to go over ethics. I've read quite a few books like A Sand County Almanac, which is a great book.

I'm not familiar with that.

You need to read it. It's all about the ethical side of things of hunting and conservation.

I'm going to put that on my list then.

It goes into that side of things of why we need to be conservationists along with hunting and focus on animal populations, the environment, and taking care of the world that we live in.

That's super important.

They could introduce that into the hunter-safety side of things.

They should. It’s as simple as how to take a crap in the woods or clean up your trash. Add a question to the test. The hunting population is so small. The bigger thing lies in people that are recreating. I almost feel like as you had to take a Hunter Safety Course once in your lifetime, you should have to take some backpacking course because that's going to cut down on search and rescue. We're turning it into, “You got to have a permit to go camp.” Is that right?

Getting into middle school or high school, we're teaching something about conservation in our Science classes. Why aren't we teaching this? That can be applied. I don't want to knock it. We're teaching kids about cells, which let's be real, how often are they going to use something about cells? If we teach them about the environment and taking care of our side of things, they're going to apply and use that.

It’s at a local level where it happens. Emissions and greenhouse gases, all that stuff is important, but that's the only thing that they cover. They don't cover how you impact the environment firsthand by crawling out of a riverbank. That's a huge thing. Go look at Deckers. It’s nothing like it used to be. It’s insane. The frequency and respecting wildlife, people have talked about and brought up, too. You're in the backcountry and somebody is blaring Lynyrd Skynyrd and having a good time.

It’s the noise pollution side of things.

If somebody wanted to come to shoot at American Bowmen, what's the best way to figure that out? Maybe they're getting into archery. You guys sometimes have some shoots where there's some coaching involved. I know there's some youth stuff that happens up there.

Every year, we do a youth shoot. We love to have the kids up there. It’s a free event for kids. We're providing bows and arrows. We have Colorado Parks and Wildlife out there with us and helping us with that side of things. We're teaching kids how to shoot, having a good time, and showing them what archery is about. As far as people coming in the general public side of things, the shoots are a great way to get in. We have another cool shoot coming up on August 13th, 2022, which wasn't on our website because we scheduled it a little later in the year after we had already released our schedule. It’s with Pack Em’ Out Apparel called the Western Hunt Fest.

Is that a competition?

We do a competition. If you go to PackEmOut.com, that’s where we can see that side of things. Jeff and Efren run Pack Em’ Out Apparel. They're two boys out of Colorado Springs that started their own apparel company. They're doing a thing called Western Hunt Fest. They're doing a shooting competition where they're going to have compound guys competing against compound guys and traditional guys competing against traditional guys. They're having an elk calling competition, and then they're going to have a pack-out competition. They have a team pack-out and a solo pack-out. They're going to do a simulated elk in sandbags. People have to bring their own packs and try and see who can pack an elk out quicker.

That's awesome. That's super cool.

They’ve got quite a few different vendors that are coming out and sponsors. It should be a great event.

When is it happening?

That is going to be August 13th, 2022.

It's not updated on your website, but you guys also have an Instagram page because I've been featured on it.

It is @AmericanBowmenClub. That's run by my wife.

You are the President of the club. If somebody wanted to contact you guys, what's the best way? Is there an email?

You can email us through the website. There is a Contact Us on there. You can also hit up Instagram, which my wife does run.

American Bowmen: Many people are becoming aware of where their meat and their food are actually coming from and getting involved in it, which is still a fantastic thing because that's what's going to keep the sport alive.

That's how we connected. Wasn't it?

Yes. Any questions she can't answer, she automatically reverts to me. I end up answering some questions very few and far between. Even with the Contact Us, those emails go straight to me.

I had a blast with you. Shooting is more fun than having this show, but this has been awesome, too. I enjoyed sitting down with you for a minute. We haven't had a chance to do this where we just sit down and have a conversation.

We're too busy shooting.

I lose my train of thought. You'll ask me a question and then it’s like, “I got to shoot.” It’s shutting off the mind for a minute. This was super cool. I can't wait to go shoot with you again. We're going to make it happen. We'll get the kids back out there on the course. We'll do that the next time we go out. Thanks for your time. Thanks for inviting me up there.

Thank you for having me on here.

The best thing that has probably happened to me this 2022 is being a member up at American Bowmen. I'm getting my reps in up there. It’s awesome. I don't have to drag my own 3D target to the middle of the National Forest and worry about hikers.

That's the nice thing about being private. It’s just us out there.

It's all a common interest. Everybody there is super cool. The night that I was there and got voted in, there were maybe 8 or 10 new members. It's a little community. It was awesome. I was down at Rocky Mountain because I've ruined so many arrows up there, and buying some more arrows. I ran into another guy that was a member. It's cool. It's a little community that’s part of that archery community. You guys are a very welcoming group of guys. I'm super happy to be a part of it. Thank you.

I'm stoked about it.

Thanks to everybody that puts in all the effort at American Bowmen as well to make that place what it is. I appreciate all you guys out there with the work parties, cutting down trees, cleaning up slash, and making that place awesome. Thanks. I've enjoyed this, too. We'll do it again. Thanks, everybody, for reading.