#115 Colorado Parks & Wildlife - Scott Murdoch
Colorado Parks and Wildlife manages 42 state parks, all of Colorado's wildlife, more than 300 state wildlife areas, and various recreational programs. At the forefront of all that is Scott Murdoch, a Colorado Wildlife Officer, District Wildlife Manager, Colorado native, and avid outdoorsman. In his free time, Scott is always enjoying the outdoors, either hunting or fishing, with family and friends. Tune in to today’s episode as Bobby Marshall and Officer Murdoch talk about wildlife, wildlife and human interaction, outdoor life and safety, camping and hiking, public land, hunting, wildfires, and so much more!
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Colorado Parks & Wildlife - Scott Murdoch
Our returning guest for this episode is from Colorado Parks and Wildlife, Wildlife Officer Scott Murdoch. Scott has joined us several times here on the show. I always enjoy having him in. We covered a lot of different subjects, including predator management, wildlife interactions, and much more. I hope you enjoy the episode.
Thanks for making it in. I always enjoy having you guys in. There's a lot going on in the state of Colorado with wildlife and wildlife management. For people that don't understand or that maybe don't hunt, mountain lions, because you don't see them very often, the population is still pretty good here in the state, right?
Yeah. Our mountain lion population here in Colorado is doing quite well. We have no shortage of mountain lions, especially along the front range area. We have abundant deer populations. Those lions do well. An average lion's going to kill about a deer a week, so you got to have a lot of food in order to feed a lot of lions. We've got many thousands of lions here in Colorado. As people start recreating in and amongst the front range, sightings of those animals go up. Even with the sightings that we have, for as many folks that are out there, it's still quite rare to see a lion. There are plenty of lions around far more than you would expect. There are a lot of them around, for sure.
I grew up playing in the woods in the backcountry, camping, and stuff. I've only seen two in the wild. I saw one in 2022, I'm pretty sure it was a cat. It’s typically when we're elk hunting and you start cow calling or something like that. It’s about your only chances. The Native Americans used to call them ghosts. They thought they were spirits.
They're pretty amazing. I've been around cats a lot because of the nature of the work that I'm in. We'll get calls quite often of, “I've got a deer that was killed in my backyard. This lion dug it up underneath my deck or underneath my trampoline,” or something like that. Those are public safety-type issues that we have with a cat in direct proximity to a home, potentially where kids might be playing or something like that. Those are situations that we want to manage or deal with a little bit more so than we would a deer getting killed in an open space or a national forest. We're going to let the cat do its thing.
A lot of times, if I get a call here in Evergreen where a deer's dug up under somebody's deck, I'll go and remove that carcass and go dump that somewhere. That cat will move on because of that safety thing. You'll have these cats that are right in front of you. They're more or less defending their kills. They're not aggressive towards you, but they're around. They're like, “It took a lot of energy for me to kill this animal. I don't want you around.”
Those cats don't want anything to do with people. They're pretty standoffish. Even when I've had them in a confined area or I know there's a deer kill right here, you're like, “I feel like there should be a cat around here.” You never see it, but you know that cat's right there. Sometimes you'd be walking and you're like, “There it is,” and you're 10 feet from this cat. Had you not known that that carcass was there, you would've never even seen that cat. There are probably more encounters with cats where you never see them. They don't do anything to the people, which is good.
We've talked about it before. It seems to be people that are smaller in statures like kids, something that they don't feel threatened by, or could potentially be prey, right?
Yeah. Usually, the incidences we've had, and certainly the ones that I've dealt with, have been cats that are either younger cats or a cat that either is injured, sick, or something like that. Usually, that's the cause. It's not generally a healthy male or female cat. There's usually some reason it's going to be keying in on a human. Their natural prey is going to be deer or that sized animal with four legs. They're not going to be keying in on somebody that's walking upright. They've figured it out. They've been hunted long enough that they associate people with negative things.
Was it the last episode you were telling me there was a cat down on Platte River down in Denver? Was that you and me who were talking about that?
We have one in Lakewood, but we frequently get them along the front range. We have an app that all of the officers and our admin staff at our customer service centers track lion and bear sightings, interactions, conflicts, and things like that. Over the course of the year, we'll record all of the locations where we get bear and lion sightings or whatever. Frequently, we'll have bear and lion sightings in town. Most folks would never know about it. It's with ring cameras and things like that on your house that people are seeing these things.
I don't know how much footage I've seen from ring cameras or trail cams of cats, especially since Instagram has gotten so popular and these social media platforms.
Especially along the front range where our ability to manage cats is somewhat hindered. You can still hunt them. You can still utilize the normal hunting techniques for mountain lions, but the reality is that these properties are much smaller. For the folks that don't know, the traditional way to hunt mountain lions is the use of hounds. Someone will find a fresh track and they'll cut out the hounds. Hopefully, you can keep up with the hounds and the hounds can get to a location where they can treat that animal.
When you have small properties, especially around conifer and evergreen, the likelihood of that animal staying on the property you have permission to hunt is pretty slim. Hunting largely for mountain lions in this particular area is somewhat non-existent because of that. On the national forest further west or south of here, mountain lion hunting is more common in there.
A lot of the quotas along the front range don't ever get closed because the ability for folks to hunt them and be successful in hunting mountain lions is pretty slim. They are such elusive critters that without the use of hounds, our ability to manage wildlife in any meaningful way is almost nil. In most years around the direct conifer and evergreen area, we probably have more road kills and landowner kills than we have hunter harvests.
Colorado Parks And Wildlife: The ability for folks to hunt mountain lions and actually be successful is pretty slim. They’re such elusive creatures that, without the use of hounds, our ability to manage wildlife in any meaningful way is almost nil.
For lions?
Yeah.
We've seen it, too, because, at one point, you could hunt bears with hounds as well, right?
Yes.
That is illegal, correct?
Yes.
What is happening with the bear population because of that? Have you guys seen a huge increase? I know we've talked about it on the show before. I know that you can get issued a bear tag pretty easily in the state of Colorado.
All of our bear hunting occurs in the fall. That is September 2nd or after. About 50% of our bears will be in hibernation by about October 15th. You have a pretty narrow window. September 2nd to about October 15th is when the bulk of the bears that we harvest are taken. That's when most of the animals are hunted. You can keep your license or whatever. A lot of the licenses will go clear through usually the end of November, depending on the unit.
Usually, by Thanksgiving, those bears are in hibernation. It's a pig in a poke trying to find a bear at that time of the year. When somebody's hunting bears in those key periods, that first part of September when those bears are starting to go through what we call hyperplasia, they're eating. They're a little bit easier to find if you can find the food source, like good berry crops, good acorns, or whatever those bears are hitting at that time of the year.
It also means things like trash cans and livestock at people's houses. Hunting over that is not an appropriate situation. We've got lots of bears and lots of conflicts. That's one of the things that we deal with all summer long. It is a significant source of my time and energy all year long. That's one of the potential costs of not hunting bears in the spring or being able to have additional management tools. That's what we're dealt with. That's the way we manage them, and unfortunately, we have to deal with the conflicts that come up in the summer times.
Can we take it back from a biological standpoint on why it's important to manage all species of wildlife from mountain lions to bears, elk, and deer, and how humans play a huge part in that, which they have for a long time?
Sure. North America is not the place that it was many years ago. We've got 330 million or 350 million people in the United States, let alone Canada and Mexico. This continent has changed drastically over the years, and humans have played a massive role in that. We've had huge shifts in human populations, whether that's indigenous people to the population. We've had huge shifts in the native populations with the introduction of species. Those are whatever types of animals and livestock to invasive species coming in over the last couple hundred years. We've seen absolute decimation of wildlife across North America between the bison and antelope herds.
The elk were almost at one point, right?
Exactly. Passenger pigeons are extinct. Carolina parakeets are extinct. There are a whole bunch of animals in North America that are no longer existing. That was the foundation for wildlife management. A lot of forward-thinking folks back in the day said, “If everybody takes however many animals they want, we're not going to have any wildlife left.” That was when the first game laws were created. No animal has gone extinct once there's been regulated hunting. The managed take of wildlife not only funds wildlife management but also helps keep that take in check also while allowing the public to utilize that resource. The resource that we have is a good one.
If everybody just takes however many animals they want, we're not going to have any wildlife left. That was when the first game laws were created, and no animal has gone extinct once there's been regulated hunting.
It is such a huge resource for me and my family, but for me especially. I hate buying meat from the grocery store. Jeremy and I were talking about this. “If I have to go to the grocery store to buy meat, I'm pissed off.” It's important to me to fill my freezer every hunting season. I prefer it over buying from a private rancher, a local rancher, or something like that.
We got this great resource. We have this resource, and then there are a lot of demands that this resource puts on the environment. If we have too many elk, it's going to hammer the habitat. If we don't have enough elk, our habitat may be overgrown and it may change what works for certain species. All of these things are interconnected, which are the predators, the prey, and the habitat. Since we've made such a mess of everything, we have a responsibility to start managing these species. We manage the predators, the prey, and the habitat. Those are some of the key components of wildlife management here in North America and things that we can do to increase wildlife.
If we do habitat projects and things to help benefit certain species depending on what we're trying to manage for, that, in turn, increases prey availability, which is a good thing. Those prey eat that food. They help distribute nutrients among the landscape and distribute seeds. There are a lot of benefits to having large ungulates and things like that on the landscape doing that stuff. We also have the role predators play. Predators move animals around. An animal doesn't camp in one single spot. Predators, and that could be people, too, help move and keep those animals moving around in the landscape. That is so that there's a more equal distribution and so that one part of the habitat isn't hammered versus another. It also can help keep those prey animals in check.
What's different about many years ago is that the public expects that populations are going to be somewhat level. They’re going to fluctuate to some extent, but many years ago when there was no direct management from humans, it was that if there was too much prey and it over-utilized the resource, those prey animals starved. If there were too many prey animals, the predator population went up until it ate all the prey animals. What happened to the predators? Those animals collapsed.
There are these drastic up-and-down cycles. It's the classic predator-prey relationship. Anybody who has studied any of that has seen those. We, as wildlife managers, try to keep those undulations of the predator-prey cycles a little bit flatter. The public doesn't want to see habitat being over-utilized. They don't want to see starving prey species. They don't want to see starving predators because there's no prey.
All of this, we want to work in a little bit more balanced way than maybe what historically was out there. We've manipulated our habitats and our environment so much that going back to what it was many years ago is not a realistic thing, especially when you have 350 million people here in the United States. We manage them. We live with them. Ultimately, we control predators. We control prey. We try to improve habitat wherever we can. That’s the basics of wildlife management here in Colorado.
From the predator aspect, are cats overpopulated in the state of Colorado? The state's broken up into hundreds of game units. I don't know how many exactly, but it's broken up into hundreds of game units. I'm sure along the front range and for people that aren't familiar with Colorado, that's where the planes meet the mountains. The majority of the population of Colorado is living right in the foothills where the mountains start. Evergreen is considered the front range. Boulder, Colorado Springs, and all the major cities in the state of Colorado are right up against that. It’s probably the densest population in the state.
There are a number of things that we put into consideration when we're creating what we call our herd management plans. Each herd management plan covers a certain geographic area, and it's going to have what we term an objective. That objective, let’s say for elk, is we're shooting for X number of elk for this given area. We’ll then do our winter counts or flights and plug those numbers in when we're above that objective. If we're below that objective, we're probably going to cut back on licenses and try and build that population up a little bit. If we're above objective, we're going to try and drop that down.
Elk are easy to count. Other things, like mountain lions, are not so easy to count. Some of the other criteria we look at are prey abundance, habitat types, and the percentage of females that are taken in the harvest. If you have too many females in a population, that might indicate that the population's on the decline. If it's a low take, that might indicate that there's more availability of males. Maybe that population's on the incline.
We do a lot of anecdotal reports. In some areas of the state, we will collar cats and look at their movements. There are these camera traps. We will put trail cameras up. We've done that by looking at individuals. We’re putting these barbed wire areas around the cameras with an electronic squeaker in there. These animals will come through those barbed wire areas. We'll snag a little bit of hair and do DNA. We can test the number of individuals.
When we have a large grid of these cameras, we can get a rough idea of the total number of animals in a given area. You can get a density for this type of habitat. There are a lot of ways to try and figure out, “Do we have a lot of cats? Do we not have enough? Are they increasing? Are they decreasing?” It’s that type of thing. Overall, mountain lion populations are doing quite well here in Colorado. All across North America, mountain lions are doing quite well. If you look at big cats in the world, in most places, big cats are on the decline.
Tigers, lions, cheetahs, jaguars, and all that.
Mountain lions are not. If you look at Midwest states like Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, Missouri, and all of those, they're seeing increases in mountain lion sightings.
California's gotten bad.
California's got lots. What's neat about mountain lions is they're one of the widest-ranging large cats in the world and they're very adaptable. When you got a mountain lion that will wander through the CU campus and not think anything about it, that's an adaptable animal. It’s because of that that a lot of the same things that might affect other species don't affect them. Some animals are a bit more sensitive to those things. Mountain lions are generalists. They can get along with a lot of different habitat types. I've seen them above the tree line. I've seen them down in lower river bottoms and dry countries. As long as there's food, they're doing fine. We're doing quite well with cats.
Have you seen a decrease in the interest in hunting them? We have it in bears. It’s because of some of the laws that have been put in place that it's not as easy to hunt a bear as it once was. In general, as generations progress in our state, in the Rocky Mountain region, the US, and then even outside of the US, hunting seems to decrease every year. You're not seeing this huge influx in hunters or licenses.
Personally, I don't have any desire to go hunt a predator. I'm fortunate enough to hunt on some private land. The nice lady that lets me hunt on her private land is begging me to shoot a bear that's on her private land because it's a nuisance. It's always on their deck. She's worried about her dogs. It's not a small bear. I've considered it from that standpoint, but I don't have the desire to go and hunt. In general, the majority of hunters hunt elk and deer once a year. These guys have full-time jobs. A lot of them are blue-collar. They can't take the time off of work to go on crazy hunts or anything like that. What are you guys seeing from that standpoint that is of interest in tags purchased?
I can't say the total number of tags. I'd have to do some digging on year-to-year if mount lion hunting has become more popular.
I didn't mean to put you on the spot either.
No worries. As far as bear hunting, there is a component of the public that has an interest in bear hunting and specifically targeting bears. Most of the bear hunters that I run into are deer and elk hunters that pick up a bear tag in case they see one. Bear hunting, in general, is a pretty unsuccessful adventure. Especially around conifer and evergreen habitats, it’s not all that great. If you go to some of the other parts of the state where bear densities are higher, it is because the habitat is so much better where they have a lot of acorns and other food or mass crops.
Bear hunting, in general, is a pretty unsuccessful adventure, especially around conifer and evergreen habitat that’s not all that great.
Some of the stuff on the West Slope near Glenwood, Uncompahgre Plateau, or down near the Trinidad area, you can legitimately go out and target bears and do quite well. Around conifer and evergreen, it's pretty slim where we have folks that are successful. That’s because the bears that are available are usually the ones that are hanging out in town and in the national forest habitats. It is not all that great.
When it comes to mountain lion hunting, we have a few or a handful of folks that will pick up a lion tag and hope that they happen to see one. That’s the minority, for sure. If they're hunting in coyotes or something like that and they happen to see a lion, they'll take one. There are the guys that do it seriously, and those are the guys that have dogs or whatever. Their buddy or whatever will come with them and go hunt.
I have seen probably an uptick in the number of folks that are actively hunting lions in that regard. Some of these talks of ballot measures and things like that have people a little nervous, like, “I better do it now before that opportunity is taken away.” There is a lot of fear with some of the hunters and hound men going on, and understandably so.
I'm not familiar. Is there something on the ballot?
In 2022, there was some discussion on some of that stuff. I've seen lots of billboards. I don't know if you've seen some of those.
No, I haven't.
Months ago, there was some stuff. Predator hunting is generally seen as not super favorable.
We had a good example of that with Derek and his guide and the heat that he's taken publicly. He's a friend of mine, so I've talked to him personally. It's pretty crazy to make national news like Fox News and all these different spots. I commend him for standing up for being on the side of conservation. Doing it legally and all that stuff is commendable.
At the same time, this is exactly why I don't post photos of the animals I harvest. It's a personal preference and it's important to me. I'm not knocking anybody that does, but the amount of hate, kickback, or criticism that's going to come your way is tremendous. It's not old-school where you’re waving the Polaroid picture and you show your buddies.
If you want accolades, send them to your close friends that are hunters. If other folks are seeing that, there's probably a good chance that you're going to get negative attention. Understand that.
I get negative attention for talking about it here.
One thing, too, that a lot of folks don't know is there's a perception with bears and lions that it's only about trophy hunting. It's only about this. I can tell you I've had bear meat. I've had lion meat. If I could hunt a mount lion for the meat every year, I would because they're excellent eating and phenomenal eating. I'd put them up against any animal out in the woods. They're that good.
There's a perception with bears and lions that they’re only about trophy hunting. It’s not. They’re also being hunted for meat because they’re excellent for eating.
Frankly, when I have roadkill, I've got a long list of people that would be knocking down my door trying to get me to donate that animal to them because they want to utilize the mountain lion for their meat. With bears, it is less. I've had a bear that was okay. It wasn't my favorite per se. I'd much rather have a deer and elk or something like that.
Maybe it was me then. The first time I tasted mountain lion, maybe it wasn't prepared right, which is key. When it comes to preparing wild game, if you have a few overcooked elk steaks, good luck. You might as well have beef jerky for dinner.
A lot of times, people keep the hides on or they don't gut them quickly and get those animals cooled down. If you take it to a processor, that can affect things. There's a lot that goes into the proper preparation of meat. We could have a full episode on meat prep. Maybe we can someday.
That'd be great.
People think that you can kill an animal for its trophy parts. That's not the case here in Colorado. You can pursue any size animal that you see fit on your license. If you want to hunt a large elk or you want to shoot a smaller elk, as long as it's legal within your license, you can do so. What's not legal is to abandon the carcass of that animal. Going and killing an animal, whether it be a big mountain lion, an elk, or whatever, you're not allowed to go and dump that meat.
Even if you take it and get it processed, quartered, or whatever you do, you get it home. If you're caught throwing it out, that's against the law.
That's one of the main provisions of what we allow. That's one of the main tenants of hunting. We are going to hunt these animals and utilize those animals.
It makes sense from an ethical standard. It's super important.
When it comes to trophy hunting, people think, “I can go and shoot the biggest animal and that’s what I get.” The meat's an afterthought. That's not the case. Somebody can pursue the largest animal that they want to or whatever. Maybe that's the phase that they're in in their hunting adventure or journey that they want to pursue the largest animal. They're still required to do that. They're obligated by law that they have to take care of that and utilize that.
When it comes to trophy hunting, people think they can just go and shoot the biggest animal. Meat is only an afterthought.
There is an increase in the popularity of bow hunting. This is one of my questions coming up here, too, so don't let me forget the over-the-counter license deal, but we can dive into that in a minute. With that popularity increase, and we're seeing all these guys on social media. Some of them are good, some of them I don't agree with, and some of them are guys that are getting into hunting and they have a platform. I feel like I've seen more bow hunters in the last couple of years than I've ever seen it in my life out in the woods.
We've talked about this before. I run across them all the time. I've talked about it with my buddy, Jeremiah, who's an outfitter. I talked about it with you as well. There are uneducated people that are out trying it. I commend them for it. Some of these guys will be 7 or 8 miles back out of a backpack or something like that. Are you seeing people that aren't familiar with taking that full carcass? Are you guys seeing an influx of people wasting meat?
Normally, I go with my uncles and my brother. Everybody had to go at a different time in 2022, so I went solo for the first time ever. Generally, we would go 7 or 8 miles deep because I have help to get a bull out if I shoot one. There's a certain amount of time in September when if there's no snow on the ground, which is seldom, the meat can spoil within a matter of 48 hours if you don't get that whole animal out. That would be considered wasting it, in my opinion.
When I see these guys that are back there by themselves and we're back there as a group, that's concerning to me that they might take an animal because of the nature of it. Maybe it's their first elk and they don't understand the full process. You have multiple hours of field dressing at that point. If you're going to bone it out, it's even longer. It's less weight to carry, but it takes longer. Are you guys seeing an increase or an uptick in wasted meat and stuff like that?
In 2022, in particular, we dealt with a number of cases like that, which was somewhat concerning. Even more than that, there were a number of situations where they were shot and outright left.
Not finding an animal or not looking?
It was more so that they shot two and were like, “I'm going to leave this thing.” There were all kinds of different things. During my personal bow hunt this 2023, I ran into that a lot. It was probably the most I've ever seen it. This is no knock on non-residents, but it was mostly non-resident guys in 2s and 3s. They were a long way back. I utilize horses and I usually hunt with one other guy. We can get an elk out pretty quickly with horses for the most part.
There were places where I was seeing guys with 2 or 3 backpackers that I wasn't willing to go, which was amazing. With several of the guys, I asked, “Had you ever packed out an elk? Have you ever gutted an elk? Have you ever quartered elk? Have you ever felt the quarter?” All of the answers were no, which is awesome that they're not hunting from the road. For years, it was always like, “Why don't these guys get off the road?”
A lot of times, when folks are posting on social media, it's like, “Look at this solo backpack hunt.” What you don't know is the truth all the time. Was it a backpack hunt? Did he have five other guys that he called and said, “I got an elk down?” Packing a bull out by yourself is one thing. Packing a bull out with five guys is a whole different deal.
That's what I was getting at for my solo hunt in 2022. I stayed within a three-mile radius of my truck and I can track it from a GPS, which is awesome. I know the area because I've hunted in there a bunch. I stayed within that three-mile radius because I felt comfortable and confident even if it was a 300-class bull, which probably wasn't going to happen.
If I shot something within that three-mile radius, I feel like I could have gotten it out on myself. It is also a backup plan in case because sometimes, you might not have the best shot. Your intentions are always to have a quick clean kill, but sometimes, you might have to track something for 1 mile or 2. I called a local outfitter and said, “If I get something down, could I call you? Could you bring horses?” It’s having a backup plan, too.
That's the best way to go about it, which is doing exactly what you did. That is a critical part. As difficult as elk hunting is, the hunt is the easy part. Once you kill something, that's when it gets difficult. One of the things I do in our hunter education classes that we teach is I'll get a pack frame and put 60 pounds on the pack frame, which is a small quarter. Most quarters are going to be heavier, especially a mature bull.
I’ll volunteer like, “Who wants to carry this elk quarter?” That's one quarter. I've got three more quarters plus all the neck meat, the back strap, the head, and your gear. You may have 6 to 8-pack loads of meat that you've got to pack out and then go back in. When you start explaining that to folks and they physically feel that weight, it's a bit different of a task for them. They reign it in a little bit.
That is also why in July, I have a six-gallon water jug that fits into my frame pack. It’s so I can fill it up from my house and hike uphill for 4 or 5 miles. I'm then able to dump it and come back. It could be 2.5 miles, dump it, and then come back so you're not carrying all that weight downhill. I do that for specific reasons to have my legs.
You might be able to do it for one load. To do it 4, 5, or 6 times in a row on every one of those trips in and out is a task.
Not to mention, you're at altitude. You can train all you want in Denver, but when you get to 511, there are all kinds of different stuff that start happening to your body as far as cramping, oxygen, and all that sort of stuff.
It’s lower than that. You're not even hunting on a trail. You're hiking over deadfall and over rocks and logs. The grass is slick and all kinds of other things.
I helped the guy pack out a bull and it was raining. Where I was hunting up in the flat tops, it was a muddy mess. We must have fallen 5 or 6 times. I don't think I'll ever go back out without trekking poles. I never wanted to be that dumb old guy with the trucking poles, but after 2022, I was like, “There is room in the pack for them.”
When I hunted sheep, that was something I bought specifically for my sheep hunt because of the country I was in. I had done the same thing of, “I'm not going to be that guy with trekking poles up in the hills.” They're with me all the time.
Where are you at with sheep?
You might as well be at 14,000 feet.
I killed mine over 136. It’s something like that.
That's a whole other level of hunting, too. One is because it's not easy to draw a tag. Some guys have spent a lifetime waiting to draw a tag in the environment that they're hunting in. A lot of times, these animals are on cliffs or you're shooting off of a cliff. A lot of hunters die.
There were a number of times when I was very thankful for my trekking poles and I even packed other critters out. With elk, I remember breaking one. As you're slipping and falling on one, it’s like, “That would've been a lot worse had I not had these poles to begin with.”
The type of rock and stuff that you're dealing with is brutal. That's why I don't do sheep or goat hunting either. I love hunting elk, which brings me to my next question because of this influx. Is it a ballot initiative? I don't know anything about this. I've seen the uproar in the bow-hunting community about potentially going to draw only for the archery season.
At one of the commission meetings in January 2023, there was some conversation about over-the-counter archery. This is specifically talked about when it comes to Grand Mesa. I believe they ended up changing some of the management on the Grand Mesa when it comes to the over-the-counter archery. There's a bigger discussion. It was initially brought up in the big game season structure about the statewide limiting of over-the-counter archery. That is something that the public needs to know, understand, and be involved with.
Wildlife management is something that the public needs to know, understand, and be involved with. There are a number of things that the public can do if they have concerns, and there are different ways that they can be involved.
There are a number of things that the public can do if they have concerns and different ways that they can be involved. On February 15th, 2023, there's going to be a Sportsmen's Caucus. The Northeast Region is going to have a Sportsmen’s Caucus where commissioners, are present and sportsmen can go and have these types of conversations. For that info, you can find it on our website.
It's critical that hunters are engaged with parks and wildlife and observe or are physically present for any sort of commission meetings. We've got a lot of big topics. We've got wolf management. We've got a big game season structure, which encompasses a variety of topics including, potentially, archery, but also, how are your seasons outlined.
A number of years ago, we changed the way that the season dates fell. Some of that can be played with resident versus non-resident allocation. What percentage of the tags are going to residents versus non-residents? All of that stuff is critical for us to manage wildlife, but we rely on the hunter's input in order to do that.
There was a survey that was done when this big game season structure kicked off. We got dismal 2,000 responses from our hunting community. How many hundreds of thousands of people come to Colorado every year to hunt? We had 2,000 responses. I challenged the hunting community, myself included, to be more involved in those types of outreach things.
Go to the Sportsmen’s Caucus in your region. Be involved in the DAU plan for the type or the species that you're most interested in hunting. Those are the hunt management plans for the species that you're involved with. Pay attention to the commission meetings. Go to the commission meetings. If there are things that are on your mind, make them known to those things.
Other things that you can be part of are some of these non-governmental organizations. These are things like Colorado Bowhunter's, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, or Backcountry Hunters & Anglers. All of these are good groups that represent hunters and anglers in positive ways. They have a voice that is bigger than a single you or me going in and talking to somebody.
It’s pretty frightening how many hunters enjoy it, but don't advocate for it when you start looking at the sheer numbers. One of the biggest ways that you can contribute in that where you guys get a lot of information from Colorado Parks and Wildlife and other state agencies, whether it's Wyoming or Montana, are those surveys.
Consciously think out your answers. It's not a race to get to the end. They ask you, “Did you harvest? How would you rate your hunt on a scale?” They also ask you, “How many hunters did you see? Did you feel like there were too many hunters? Did you feel like there were not enough animals?” There's a full list of questions that you guys get some valuable information on. It also helps you understand success rates so you can understand management.
One of the tools that we use is those surveys. As an example, in a lot of our areas, we don't necessarily manage the maximum number of animals in a particular area. The habitat, in general, could support more animals than what we have on the ground. There are social factors. There are political factors. There are all kinds of things that end up making us manage in a little bit different way.
If we had as many animals, let’s say elk, on a landscape as we could possibly have, we've got some potential conflicts. We might have potential ag-related issues with ag producers getting into haystacks or competing with cattle on the forage. You may have a social issue there. We may have increased road strikes on highways in particular areas. We may reduce the total number of animals in a given area because of that.
There is any number of reasons why we want more or fewer animals in a given area, but these social factors always play into it. Years ago when we did that survey, people said, “We have too many elk.” The population and the habitat could support it, but the public was saying, “We have too many elk.” We've reduced that population. Folks are saying, “Where'd the elk go?” Folks are sometimes saying, “We've gone too far. Let's back up. Let's maybe increase those elk.” All impact the way that we manage our animals.
It’s not just for the pleasure of hunting. There are so many more things that go involved, whether somebody thinks something's cute and cuddly or if somebody views it as food or an impact on their business. There are a lot of different variables for you guys to keep track of.
Each area is going to be managed for different things. We have opportunity areas where we can have a lot of hunters. Part of the drawback of having a lot of hunters is that you're probably going to have a little bit less positive experience in terms of the number of animals you see, being able to get away from people, and that type of thing.
The positive of that is that I have the opportunity to hunt in that particular area every year. In some of these areas, you don't have that opportunity. A buddy of mine drew a pretty coveted tag up in 201. He had a great hunt up there. There was elk all over the place. He was able to find a large elk. It was a fantastic hunt. Who wouldn't want to go there? It also took him 27 years to draw that tag. That's not something that you get to go and experience every year. That's something that might be once in a lifetime for that person to experience.
The criteria for that particular game management is going to be managed significantly differently than a place like an over-the-counter unit. Folks have to understand that there's a drawback. To be able to hunt every year, you're going to have to deal with some crowding. Are there ways or tools that we can use to help mitigate some of that?
If you want to be able to hunt every year, you're going to have to deal with some crowding.
We’ve utilized over-the-counter caps in some instances with bear tags and had some success with that. There is the resident and non-resident quota. We've seen resident numbers stagnant as far as the total number of hunters. Those have been pretty consistent over the years, but we've seen an increase in the number of non-resident hunters. Everybody wants to come to the West to hunt elk.
We're one of the only states where you can come and get an over-the-counter elk tag and go out and hunt elk.
That’s something that folks are looking at. Are the impacts of non-residents too significant? I don't know. I don't know what they'll decide ultimately. Hopefully, hunters can voice their opinions and get their opinions out there. Hopefully, the commission will take those things into consideration.
Are some of those other groups showing up? For example, do PETA as well as anti-hunting organizations show up to some of these meetings? I'm sure that there's an agricultural-based representation at some of these meetings as well. Are some of those people showing up?
Most definitely. It’s maybe not necessarily directly tied to the over-the-counter issue, but wolves have been a hot topic with user groups of all types. Our commission is a diverse commission as well. We've got 3 sportsmen, 3 ag, 3 recreationists, and 2 that don't have necessarily a tight affiliation. All of these eleven members of the commission come from all kinds of backgrounds. They are not all hunters. They are not necessarily keyed in on one aspect. They have to represent the community as a whole. They're going to have diverse opinions.
That's the biggest thing, too. It’s to be educated before you go in to make a decision. This isn't about ideology. It's about biology, in my opinion. Understanding the facts behind something or talking to somebody like a game warden. Talk to guys when you see somebody and ask questions. You are a biologist. You're not a game warden. You're not a wildlife officer. You're not a state employee.
That's why the opinion of hunters is so valuable. Many of the hunters that I talk to have an immense knowledge base because they spend so much time in the woods. They don't necessarily have the hard data, but they have a lot of anecdotal data. They know where these animals are going. They know what habitats they’re using. They know if the population's up or down. They can't tell you what the population numbers might be, but they're pretty confident. They’re like, “The population's going up. The population's going down. We're not seeing as many bulls. We're not seeing as many bucks.” They're a phenomenal resource.
They're the closest to the actual thing.
A lot of our commission are not hunters, so they need to hear from hunters about that perspective.
It makes a lot of sense. I've never thought about it that way. I should probably get more involved than I am.
In all our free time, right?
Yeah.
It's hard.
That's why I spend time on it here at the show, too. It's important. That's why I enjoy having you or Colorado Parks and Wildlife, or anybody from any affiliated game positions. We've talked to some people out of California. We've talked to some different organizations. Howl for Wildlife is great because, on a national standard, they're bringing light to some of these ballot initiatives and stuff like that. They’re educating the general public, mainly the hunters.
If you live in Arkansas, how are you going to know about this unless you're following Colorado news? There's a huge disconnect there in that aspect and they're filling that, which is great. There are plenty of places out there to get an education. Speaking for the hunting community, they’ve woken up to it by listening to podcasts and stuff like that. That's one reason why we cover it. I appreciate you coming in to help shed some light on that.
What is the best way to get some information if somebody wanted to know more about elk populations or if they wanted to know more about mountain lion populations in the state of Colorado specifically? They can make some logical decisions where if it does go to a ballot box situation or they're going to one of these commission meetings, they can be educated on it. That's the biggest fear. Nobody wants to sound like a dumbass or not have facts backed up to what they're talking about. That’s the majority of people. There are some of those guys out there. In your opinion, what's the best way to go about trying to get some of that information? It’s not easy to come by.
One of the things that I suggest folks is to go to our website first. There are a lot of answers you can find on there. Especially if they're run-of-the-mill questions, our website's going to have a lot of those options. The other thing is if you've got specific type questions, maybe it's a specific herd question for a given area, get in touch with a biologist. Get in touch with your local wildlife officer. I field questions all the time. I've answered all kinds of questions. I try to be as honest and upfront with folks about whatever the question is that they have.
You guys do some stuff for the general public, like sitting here at the show. I know that you've gone to some realtor meetings and stuff to educate people that are moving into the area or living with wildlife.
I was at the Sportsmen's Show. We talked to quite a few folks there. They had a bunch of questions about various things.
I didn't even think about that. That's a good way. Start at the website, and then if you need questions beyond that, it's okay to contact Parks and Wildlife to ask somebody over the phone. Anytime that I've called for a question regarding a draw a game unit or something like that, I've been able to talk to somebody, which is amazing. If you call an airline, good luck. You're talking to somebody in India at the end of five computers.
Our admin staff, if you call our Denver office, can answer the vast majority of questions. They field thousands of calls. It’s probably hundreds of calls per day in some instances. Especially as it gets towards application season, they get hammered. They take a huge amount of workload off of the field folks. There are always questions that they can't answer, so we end up handling some of those that are more location-specific or maybe herd-specific.
It’s that, “I heard this or I heard that,” kind of thing. I don't mind having those conversations about what's going on. We've had to dispel myths about, “I heard a lion is going to attack a kid here,” or whatever. We've had to dispel some of that of, “That’s not the case. That is the case,” or whatever. I don't mind having those conversations with folks.
It's good to know. There are some of these commission meetings that are happening are on the wolf-free introduction. By December of 2023, there need to be wolves on the ground that have been repopulated. It's coming down to the wire of coming up with an action plan. Can you shed some light on some of the latest news? I haven't been to any of these. I’m sure a lot of our audience is interested in it.
There's been a series of public meetings trying to get the public's input on the draft wolf management plan. The wolf management plan came out and they've been subsequently having meetings. If you haven't seen or looked at our draft wolf Management plan, it's on our website. You can download it. It's a PDF. February 22nd, 20223 is our period of comment.
We've mentioned the website a couple of times. If you want more information on all kinds of different stuff or anything that's regarding Colorado wildlife and parks in general, maybe you want to go recreate someplace. There's a ton of information on here. It's CPW.State.co.US. That is the actual site.
This is where you can purchase a hunting or fishing license or OHV snowmobile permit.
Back to that, what if somebody wanted to go get the wolf management plan?
They can review that. That's their draft plan of this is how we're going to do whatever we set out to do. You have that opportunity to comment through almost the end of February 2023. That’s February 22nd, if I'm correct. At that point, they're going to take all those comments and change whatever they need to change however they decide to do that. At that point, the ball's rolling, and things are happening. Some exciting news is they did capture two wolves. They got collars on two of the wolves. They were both adult males.
They were from the Jackson Park. They had migrated to Colorado, right? Those were not reintroduced.
That is correct. One of the males and then a female had several young ones. At one point, there were six. I don't know exactly the full history of where those all have gone, but they got collars on these, too. Hopefully, we'll learn a little bit more information.
That was in North Park?
Yes. That's the newest thing. The two wolves will have collars on and then we'll be able to see where they're moving and what habitats they're utilizing. That'll be a better way for us to find out if there are any denning locations and stuff like that.
From being involved in any of this, do they expect to reintroduce wolves on the front range at all? Have there been talks about that? We were talking earlier that the population is so dense right here. You already deal with wildlife conflicts on a pretty regular basis along the front range, especially on the predatory side.
Undoubtedly, there will be wolves on the front range. That's not where they're going to be reintroduced. They've identified some reintroduction locations, all of which will be on the West slope, which was part of the original ballot measure. That was in that language. It was going to be introduced on the Western slope.
They came up with some criteria. It’s 60 miles from any border. That’s Utah or Wyoming-New Mexico border. It’s more central to the state. There's a map that we can pull up on our website, but it's that I-70 corridor, more or less Silverthorne over to Glenwood Springs. It may be a little bit further than Glenwood Springs, but that's the core area where they're looking. The Gunnison Basin is further south and then a little bit further north. It’s not quite to Steamboat, but south of Steamboat.
It’s only a matter of time before we have a wolf on the front range potentially. Silverthorne is a direct shot over the continental divide from us.
In other states where they put wolves in a given area and there'll be some immediate dispersal. That dispersal can be anywhere from 20 to 130 miles. They're going to disperse to some level until they figure out, “This is where I want to set up camp.” They're going to be moving. It’s not because you put them in a certain area that it means they're staying there. They're going to be put in certain spots, but the reality is they could be found anywhere in Colorado. Those animals will have collars on them as well, so we can get an idea of what habitats are using and go from there.
When you put wolves in a certain area, it doesn't mean they're staying there. They're going to be put in certain spots, but the reality is that they could be found anywhere in Colorado.
Can we talk about the coyote population here a little bit? How many interactions do you have that are probably from a predatory animal? That's probably the most interactions that I've ever had, whether it's from pets in my yard. Jeremy had one. Your son was taking the trash out and there were three coyotes.
There were three in the driveway.
Is that here? Is that local?
It’s over the hill. In my neighborhood where I live, back behind the golf course, there's a culvert back there. There's a small pack living in the culvert, which is fine. I've never had an issue. I know some of the neighbors have had some issues with the loss of animals, cats specifically, and stuff like that. I've seen some coyotes with mange on them as well. Since they're from the dog family, could these wolves run into some of the same issues that coyotes have? Could we run into some of the same issues as a population dealing with gray wolves? Have there been any studies on that?
Yeah. There certainly could be. When wolves are brought into areas, they hit the coyote populations pretty hard. They'll kill coyotes a lot. There will probably be some of that.
It necessarily wouldn't be a bad thing. In my opinion, coyotes are overpopulated.
They’ll figure out what equilibrium makes sense for the landscape. There are going to be a number of ecological changes that we'll see with wolves on the ground, both with our prey population's potential and all kinds of things.
It’s probably the size of coyotes. From when I was a kid, I don't remember seeing coyotes as big. I've seen someone where I'm like, “Is that a wolf?” They’re a lot bigger than I ever remember.
There is a pretty interesting book, Coyote America. I don't know if you've ever read it.
It's on my list, but I haven't. Is that a Steven Rinella book?
I can't remember. I don't think it is, but it talks about the expansion of coyotes all across North America.
They're in New York City.
They’re all over. It's pretty amazing.
They’re in Chicago.
They’re everywhere. I've seen them downtown on 16th Street Mall before. Coyotes are everywhere. Historically, based on accounts and different things that I've read, that's not the case. That's a potential change. Who knows? They're another super adaptable species. They use that edge habitat that humans have created. Any of those canine species are going to be adaptable like that. There certainly are going to be conflicts between humans and wolves and livestock and wolves. By how much remains to be seen at this point.
Time will tell.
We're going to have some interesting years, for sure. We’re going to learn a lot, too. We’re going to see how the populations change, how animals react, and all kinds of interesting things. There's certainly an opportunity to learn some stuff.
I need to get caught up on speed on it, but I have a question. If you don't know the answer, that's fine. Are wolves in the state of Colorado still on the endangered species list? For anything that's on the endangered species list, the state cannot manage the population. I’m not sure how that works.
It depends on if they're federally listed or state listed. State listings don't necessarily have the same weight as the Endangered Species Act, so that's a separate thing. The Federal Endangered Species Act lists species that are of greatest concern or are endangered. You think of things like bald eagles. Those, at one point, were endangered. They've since been removed from the endangered species list.
That is great because we see them in Colorado. There's one right here at the lake on a regular basis.
With the wolf, that's gone back and forth. You’ll catch me off guard here, but the last I knew is they were listed. I believe something was adjusted so that we can still maintain control and manage. I'd have to do a little bit more digging on that. I don't deal with the wolves often, hardly ever. I'll get sightings that we'll go out and investigate, but when it comes to wolves, I'm not involved in any of the planning process for the wolf plan and that type of thing.
I'm asking you like you got all the answers for everything. You're super knowledgeable, though.
You can certainly look that up. The last I looked or the last I recall was that management has been given back to the states.
That is good news.
That gives us a little bit more flexibility.
That was the biggest thing that worried me about it. Predators need to be managed, in my opinion, whether it's a badger or all the way up to a grizzly bear. We're seeing that in Montana where grizzlies were put on the endangered species list and X amount of people are dying a year. They're like, “Maybe we should rethink this a little bit.” That's at the ballot box, I believe, or is a ballot initiative. It concerns me. I'm okay with having wolves here, in a sense. I’m not 100% comfortable with it, but it makes me feel more comfortable if they were able to be managed at least by parks and wildlife.
In that draft plan, there are several different phases. There are going to be four phases. Don't quote me exactly, but the first phase is a reintroduction phase. Phase two is maybe a monitoring phase. Phase three is where our populations are stable once they reach a certain point. Phase four is ultimately they'd go back to the commission and say, “This is how we're going to manage those.”
The potential for hunting would occur in that fourth phase. There's a lot of debate on what level that population should be. Ultimately, that's the commission's decision on what numbers those would be. That's been written into the plan to at least utilize hunting as a management tool, which is consistent with what we do with everything else.
That’s with every other species.
The challenge with the whole endangered species stuff is that if they are listed federally, that restricts the state's ability to manage them in that way. We've seen that where you have lawsuits that are constant. There’s lawsuit after lawsuit with these different endangered species. You end up with a tremendous population of wolves. Up in Minnesota, that's what happened. They had thousands of wolves. They were able to hunt and they killed over 1,000 wolves.
Colorado Parks And Wildlife: The challenge with the whole endangered species stuff is that if they are listed federally, that restricts the state's ability to manage them in that way.
Idaho, too, was in a similar situation. I don't know who it was or if it was a third-party organization, but you could go up there and make money for hunting wolves. I don't know how that works. To me, it's crazy. One of my biggest concerns, too, with the whole thing is growing up as a kid, we never had bald eagles here. The lynx was getting repopulated when I was a kid. I've seen several lynx, which is super cool.
Moose was never around. They scare the crap out of me half the time. The moose population here is amazing to the point where guys are going out and are able to harvest moose. I see more moose sometimes than I see elk in certain game units. I'm sure that the wolves are going to have a pretty big impact on that population, too.
They're going to be pretty vulnerable. We’re in the heyday of moose here in Colorado. We've got lots of moose. They're doing quite well. Undoubtedly, we're going to have predation by wolves on moose as well as predation on elk. Those moose like to stay in those same areas. We'll see how they do. There are going to be some changes in habitat types that elk will use because they're more vulnerable in certain habitats and stuff like that.
I've seen what it's done in Yellowstone. You can't hunt in Yellowstone. I know that the moose population has dropped tremendously there since the reintroduction of wolves.
That is most like Minnesota and Michigan in some of those areas where they have a lot of wolves and a lot of moose. Those moose are a significant source of their diet. Isle Royale does a lot of predator-prey studies on those islands. There'll be tons of moose. The wolves will increase and eat the moose out of houses and homes, then the population of the wolves will crash. You can find all kinds of data. They've had a lot of neat data on wolves and moose up there.
What island is that?
It’s Isle Royale up in Northern Michigan.
I’m not familiar with it.
There's a lot of science when it comes to the wolves and moose out there.
Do you anticipate wolves being in evergreen at some point?
I'm sure we'll get sightings, whether they decide to camp here or stay here. Time will tell. I'd like to think that these animals are going to want to find more remote areas.
They're pretty elusive, a lot like a lion. I've gone to Yellowstone to go photograph them and have not seen a wolf. The time I did, it was thousands of yards away from a spotting scope.
They're like most predators in that they're going to want to be in areas that are free of people at all possible. Wherever they can find good food and resources away from people, that's going to be probably their first pick. As habitats fill up and resources become more scarce, they're going to start exploring other spots. Like we have rogue bears and rogue lions that key in on certain things, whether it be livestock, pets, or stuff like that, it's inevitable that we're going to have wolves that are going to behave the same way.
You've got wolves and moose on that island right there?
Yeah.
That is unbelievable to me. It’s in the middle of Lake Superior.
Maybe if you type Isle Royale moose study.
That's pretty far in there.
Every time itt I've seen a Yeti, it's been a moose. They're tall and black. They’re normally in a dark spot.
You'll see how that population fluctuates there.
It's like a rollercoaster ride. It keeps going. It keeps getting more drastic.
You see how much those moose go up and the moose crash. It balances out.
We're going to go through some major fluctuation like this. How many years? Is it 53 years they've been doing this study? That's a long road. That is a long time. At what point was that major crash, Jeremy?
It looked like ‘99.
For people that are reading, we are looking at a graph of the wolf population and moose population on this island.
It's probably like ’97.
That would've been at 40 years.
They dropped from 2,500 to a little under 1,000 in 1 year or 2.
At least we have some data from Yellowstone and some of these places like what's this island again, Isle Royale?
Yes. It's one of the longest continuous studies of predators and prey in the world.
That's so wild. Thinking about that island, there are 2,500 moose.
That’s not that big.
There are many predators sharing the same space.
What is the moose population in Colorado? Do you happen to know that, or is that something you can look up, Jeremy?
It’s probably in that 2,500 range. It’s steadily increasing. We’re doing quite well.
They issued 500 to 600 tags.
It’s 2,500 to 3,500.
I've seen a lot of them. I never saw it years ago as a kid.
Can you imagine that many moose on that little island? That's how many we have in Colorado.
That’s insane. What else is on that island? Is it just wolves and moose? That’s it?
Yes.
That’s insane. It’s like a tennis match between the two of them.
They don't allow hunting or anything on it?
No, it's part of the national park.
That's pretty incredible. What's that island off of the coast of Santa Barbara in California? There's an island out there where they had Roosevelt elk.
It’s Catalina and a few others.
Catalina's got bison. I've been out there before and it's wild.
I’ve seen it from the coast, but I've never been out there.
They have great whites and bison. It’s pretty wild. There was another island there. At one point, it became such a crazy environment for the species. They allowed hunting on it for a long time and the populations were managed. As soon as they took it off, California game and fish had to go in and decimate the population of everything on there. It is pretty heartbreaking, honestly. There's a documentary on it that I saw.
There are some areas that don't have predators. In New Zealand, there are no real predators on there. All those animals have been introduced there. It's an interesting environment for them.
It’s the same with Hawaii with the axis deer. You can go over and hunt axis deer anytime that you want. I don't even know if there's a limit on what you can take. They’re from India, right?
I think so. They’re somewhere in that.
There are no tigers in Hawaii, so there's nothing to prey on them other than hunters. That’s some incredible meat. That's a bucket list for me to get over there and try to get over and do an axis deer with a bow. It would be awesome. It would be incredible. If you've never been to Catalina, it is a wild place to see. You could be on the beach and there's bison.
If you're going to be a bison, is there a better place to be stuck in Catalina?
The only thing you got to worry about is sharks when you swim. I'm sure that that has happened sailing. It's had to have. I was listening to Rogan. I can't remember who was on there, but there was somebody off of San Diego or Catalina. It was a diver that got eaten by a great white.
It was a dude in Mexico.
Maybe it was in Mexico. Was it the diver that got decapitated?
Yeah. It took him from the shoulders and his head right off.
That is my biggest fear.
He was diving for scallops.
I don't fill out of my element being in the forest, but in the ocean, it’s different. I lived at the beach for a long time. I used to go out and do standup paddle and get past the greats. We would go out when the gray whales were migrating. It was super cool. These gray whales would swim underneath your paddle board. They're as big as a school bus sometimes or bigger. It is an impressive thing to have happened. You're out of your element at that point. I couldn't imagine having to deal with a shark. I don't know what's worse. We've talked about sharks or grizzlies on this many times before. They're both bad, in my opinion.
The thing about the water is even as fast as you can swim, you're still slower than everything.
You’re helpless. Humans are not meant to be in the water. We weren't designed for that. The most scared I've ever been in the ocean was from a sea lion. I was surfing. I didn't know what the heck I was doing. I was out on a wave and this sea lion would not let me come to shore. We're talking about a 400-pound pit bull with canines and everything. He was showing his teeth at me and snorting. He never got more than maybe 30 yards from me, but still, that was scary enough.
Humans are not meant to be in the water. We weren't designed for that.
He was swimming circles around me. I'd try to get on the wave and he'd get in front of me. It was not cool. I was out there for like an hour. You're lying on a surfboard. I don't know if you've ever seen guys fistfight on surfboards. That happens occasionally. You might be in somebody's territory or something like that. You're in the water, so to have any force or get something like that off of you, good luck. You might as well be fighting in a zero-gravity situation because it’s slim to none there. That's why they train those moonwalkers underwater. You don't have any ground to the earth to have any momentum.
I've seen guys full-on clobbering each other out there and you have to hold onto one of their arms so you can punch with the other one. They're not even bleeding. It’s like you're watching a UFC fight with these monster blows and nothing's happening. There’s no blood. There’s nothing, not even a shiner. I'm sure that there are some Samoan dudes out there that could hold you down. With grizzly bears, some people say they're in Colorado. Some people say that they're not. Some people say that they have sightings. Somebody has some footage. Do we have anything recorded that you know of?
I've never even received a remotely credible sighting in my career.
Do you get a call occasionally?
We've gotten calls about Sasquatch, too.
We have talked about that. What are some of the wildest calls that you've gotten? Sasquatch is pretty wild.
We’ve had somebody say that there's a breeding call of Sasquatch. I don't know how they know it's a breeding call, but that was interesting. We've had where somebody like, “Somebody's poaching back here.” We go out on a call and it's these Sasquatch hunters out four-wheeling where they're not supposed to be or this or that. They do like their Sasquatch, that’s for sure.
There's a whole museum down there, isn't there?
Yeah. They do some Sasquatch tours out in the woods. That's a bit interesting. I had one with a guy. He was convinced it was a herd of 100 moose. I'm like, “It's probably not moose. It’s probably elk,” but he was convinced they were moose. Sometimes, you don't argue. A lot of people see things that aren't probably the case. It can be all big or little types of animals.
I've had times when I've scared myself. It happened to me this hunting season. I was talking to a bow hunter that was camped next to me. I was solo hunting. We were talking about cats and I had seen that cat. He was telling me one time that he had turned around. He's got this sixth sense. He said all he saw was this basketball head. There's a lot of oak brush up there. He said, “All I could see was a perfect head of a mountain lion.” He was twenty yards from him.
After that story, I'm walking out in the dark. I swear to God I had something grab my pant leg, but there was nothing. I don't think a lion would tease with the pant leg. He would've been on my shoulders at that point. I did a quick turnaround, and then I had to laugh at myself. It was one of those good ones. How often are you in close proximity to wildlife? I know of one instance where I was going to breakfast to meet a family member. I stopped by and there was a deer in your truck and then tried to get into my truck in the middle of the road. How often do those calls happen?
That one’s pretty rare. That was not a common situation. More often, what we're dealing with are things that are injured and lots of road kills. We'll get those calls all the time where somebody hits something and the animal is still alive. They don't know what to do. Ultimately, I can't tell them to put it down. They don't have any legal or lawful authority to do that. As much as it sucks for them to have to sit there and wait for a deputy, wildlife officer, or whoever to show up, it's probably the better situation to have to wait. We then end up making the assessment.
Is it illegal to put an animal down if I were to hit an elk?
Yes. One, you don't have a license to do that. For possession of any wildlife, you've got to have a license.
Not to mention, you got a firearm out on the highway.
I had a situation where a guy did do that and ended up putting six rounds through a moose's head, but he was shooting it through the nose. He's thinking it's between the eyes, which is more in the sinus cavity than the head. That's a perfect example of why we don't allow the public to do that. Plus, he was right on the highway, so there were a number of issues and safety concerns as well as the poor moose having to deal with that type of thing.
We tell folks deputies are trained to put stuff down. We put down things all the time. As much as we don't want an animal sitting there and suffering, the safety of the public is utmost. We can't have people skipping rounds off the highway or shooting down. I had a deer that was right off 470. I had to get a trooper to stop the highway because there were no safe shooting lanes. We had to do that. It's an unfortunate part of our job. The alternative is that animal sits there and suffers, so I soon put those animals down. In most cases, if I've got time, I can donate those animals. I've got a long list of people that'll take wildlife. Especially if it's in good shape, I can get those animals donated pretty quickly.
That's awesome. It's not going to waste at that point. That's great.
It doesn't all because you see plenty of road kills on the side. A lot of times, we don't get the call. They get hit and get hammered by whatever or it is dead there. We can only touch a small fraction of them, but we try to try to salvage as much as we can. That's probably the most direct interaction with wildlife. There are things caught in fences.
Is that very common?
In conifer and evergreen, it is very common. Especially the hog wire fence with the 4 inch square mesh, chain link, or something, they’ll jump and get their foot tangled in there. In poorly maintained barbed wire fences, they'll get their feet tangled in that. The other really nasty one is when you have the spikes on the tops of the fence. It’s west of here. I'll have to show you a picture sometime. We had an elk that got caught on one of those. We ended up having to put it down. The poor thing sat there on those spikes on the tops of a big old nasty gate. They're brutal on these critters.
I saw horrific things. I have some horrible friends that send me this stuff. It was a guy that was in a BMX park. He was trying to jump one of those things on his bicycle. It was not good. I doubt the guy lived. It was crazy. I know that we've talked about it before, but I want to touch on it quickly. That's somebody's responsibility, whether they're a hunter or not or they respect wildlife or not. If you move into a mountain community or you're living around wildlife, it is maintaining some of those things like fences and maybe not putting up a ten-foot tall privacy fence around your entire property for migration purposes.
I know we've talked about that before, but that's some of the stuff that you deal with between realtors and educating the general public on that. The reason why I have the hunting knowledge that I do and the knowledge of wildlife is I grew up here and I have family members that grew up here. If they didn't teach me or if Colorado Parks and Wildlife didn't come to my school and teach me some stuff, I wouldn't have known.
When I go and talk to different groups of people, I'll ask them, “What's the biggest threat to wildlife?” Half of them will say, “Poaching is the biggest threat.” The other half would be climate change. Climate change is not the biggest threat. What about vehicle strikes? Vehicle strikes aren't the biggest thing. The biggest thing that affects wildlife is habitat. Habitat loss is the number one contributor both here in North America as well as all over the world in the reduction of wildlife. If you want more wildlife, you got to improve the habitat. It's as simple as that.
If you want more wildlife, you have to improve the habitat. It's as simple as that.
When you put your house in a given area, build a new highway, or build a new hiking trail, a mountain bike trail, or whatever it may be, that is a direct loss of habitat for whatever species. You can't have wildlife without that. When you're building fences on your property that may have migration impacts on your property, it may be that much more difficult for that animal to get into your property to feed. There are all kinds of things, but there is both direct habitat loss and then there's indirect habitat loss. In Maxwell Falls, for instance, there's some good national forest right up there, but have you ever been up there a day when there were not 100 cars up along the parking lot?
I don't even go anymore.
How much wildlife do you think is utilizing that spot?
Zero.
It's great habitat. If there were no people there, it'd be great habitat. It’s the same thing with even Elk Meadows. There are probably fewer animals that use that than they historically did because of the number of people there. That's indirect habitat loss. The habitat's still there, but it's not functioning at the same level as it used to.
That's the human-to-wildlife interaction, right?
Yeah. It could be pets, livestock, or noise. It could be all kinds of different things. If you run an ATV down a trail, it's going to have that noise impact for some buffer around all these types of areas. All of these impacts that we have as humans are going to carry over into the population. Whether it be the size, productivity, or survival, it's going to have some effect on there.
Knowing that and knowing valuable wildlife is to me, if I move into a specific area, I'm going to try and reduce some of my impacts. Maybe I can plant some trees that are more favorable to certain species. I can do all kinds of different things. It doesn't have to be big animals. It could be putting birdhouses up. There are a lot of things you can do to help and improve the wildlife habitat for things that are around you. For invasive species, that’s planting more appropriate grasses and shrubs or flowers. There are a lot of things you can do, but ultimately, you got to look at that habitat component. Where there's a good habitat for whatever target species, you're going to have a good population.
That's good to know. That's something that I don't think we've talked about. I know that you work on a lot of habitats. I forget what you guys call them. I'm drawing a blank. Is it a restructured habitat?
It’s rehabilitated habitat.
You did a sheep one, right?
Yeah. I finished a 73-acre project for big horn sheep, so wintering big horns, which is pretty neat. We ended up doing a lot of thinning. Historically, a fire would come in there and burn these hillsides and open up the hillsides. The sheep do much better on open hillsides. There's more grass. They can see further so they can avoid predators and things like that. In any case, these hillsides, over the years, have become overly dense. We go in there and thin things out. It makes a big difference for those animals. The grass is coming in.
We've done some controlled burns in certain areas to help thin out some of that understory logs, small trees, and stuff like that. That can play a positive role, too. It’s the same thing we do with fish habitats. Up on the Dream Stream or above Spinney Mountain Reservoir, they've done a lot of habitat work. You've seen these a lot on private properties, too. That is exactly what they're doing. They're doing habitat work so they can support more fish or higher populations of fish, both big and small. They need prey and bugs and stuff in order to grow big trout. There's a lot to it, but it starts at the bottom. You can't have big, mature animals without having that foundation below you. You got to have everything.
You can't have big, mature animals without having that foundation below you.
We're coming up on time. I'd love to have you back in the spring, which is around the corner. I'd love to talk about trout fishing and some of the impacts the anglers have on streams. With the bow hunting community and even much more, I've seen a ton of people mishandling fish, not fishing to reds. It’s all the general stuff. Normally, I have a guide come in or something like that. We talk about that a lot, but I'd love to have you sit in on one of those if you're available. We'll do that.
Before we jump off though, let's talk about what CPW or Colorado Parks and Wildlife's got coming up. I encourage you if you're an angler, a hunter, or somebody that's interested in wildlife or appreciates them to go out to some of these commission meetings. Can you drop some of those dates of that stuff that's happening? Maybe there's a hunter's ed class that you know about that's coming up.
The Northeast Region’s having its Sportsmen's Caucus on February 15th, 2023. That's at 6060 Broadway. That’s our Denver office. That's either 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM or 6:30 PM to 8:30 PM.
Is there a schedule or something on that?
I'm trying to think where I found that.
CPW.State.Co.US is the website.
We're also in the final push for Hunter Ed classes. Everybody wants to get their Hunter Ed done before the application series or application season in April 2023. We’ve got a lot of Hunter Education classes going on. We've also got a lot of demand, so a lot of the classes are full. Check back to our website. If you're not seeing one, keep checking back because we're putting them on fairly frequently.
That's something where you would have to reserve a spot.
We've got a lot of ice-fishing clinics. This spring, we'll have more regular fishing, like a fly fishing clinic and that type of thing.
You do some recreational stuff, too. It's not all dealing with wildlife. I see in Elk Meadow hike here.
The parks have a lot of different activities. Here's one, Learn Ice Fishing at Staunton State Park. There are a bunch of different types of things. This is the webpage where you can get to fishing clinics, hunter education, and then other types of classes, clinics, seminars, and stuff like that.
That is CPW.State.Co.US.
That’s a stacked calendar. There is always something going on.
This is the last question, and I always like asking you this. What are some things that the general public could do to make your job easier? I know you as a personal friend and how much you deal with. I only know a little bit, but I know these wildlife officers deal with a lot on a daily basis. Colorado Parks and Wildlife does and the park rangers that I know, even Jefferson County and Open Space Park Rangers. What are some things that could help you out in your day-to-day job from the general public?
In the past, we've talked about feeding wildlife and some other things. We'll talk maybe more about poaching. It’s being a good witness. Ultimately, wildlife is all of ours. We all have a vested interest in making sure that wildlife is protected. Unfortunately, I'm just one person, so I can't be everywhere. Some of our best cases have come from people that have called things in.
I had some guy hunting before the archery season. Ultimately, it was an Operation Game Thief report. We were able to make a good case on that because the guy was such a good witness. Being a good witness doesn't mean confronting somebody. It doesn't mean getting involved. It often means making good notes of what you've seen.
Also, recording the license plate is critical in a lot of cases. We had some folks that shot some elk off 285. A license plate was one of the big keys to catching that. That was a pretty big case that we were in the process with. A license plate is what sealed the deal. I've got another case that's going through our court system. It was a tip from years before I even started this investigation that clued me onto this particular group of people. It was a benign tip. It didn't even lead to anything more, but it gave me enough of, “Maybe something's here.”
Even if you think that there's something not all that significant in your mind, a lot of times, that might be the missing piece of information that we're looking for. This is not aimed to have everybody ratting out their neighbor. That's not the goal of it, but this is your wildlife. If you want to protect your wildlife and you know something is egregious, there's an opportunity for you to call and report that.
That’s especially if you're a law-abiding sportsman. It makes me furious.
I always tell folks, "It's one thing if somebody is ignorant of the law or makes a mistake, but there's something different when there's an intentionality behind it." These are, in a lot of cases, bonafide criminals that are engaged in significant poaching acts as well as other types of criminal acts. A lot of times, these large criminal investigations involve poaching. They might involve drugs, guns, or money.
There’s also human trafficking.
There are all kinds of things.
It's crazy.
This is not a request for the mundane or the accidental. This is for somebody who's intentionally doing those types of things. Being a good witness is always helpful for us because I can't be everywhere.
You have multiple ways. We've talked about this before on the show.
It’s under our website, but if you do Colorado Operation Game Thief, it'll pull up.
There is a 1-800 number as well. You can call 1-877-COL-OGT for Operation Game Thief. That's 1 (877) 265-6648. You can simply email GameThief@State.Co.US. Those are multiple ways that you can get ahold of somebody. This passes you right through to the state agency, right?
Yes. We've got Operation Game Thief dispatchers that will take calls. You can be anonymous or you can list your personal information as well. That's a great place where you can report whatever violation it is. It's been pretty amazing the number of cases that we've been able to make by a pretty minor report or appears to be a minor situation ends up ballooning into this much more massive poaching case. There's a lot of it going on. Unfortunately, without the help of the public, we don't even catch a fraction of it.
That's a great point that you brought up, too, that it's all of our wildlife. It's all of our public lands. A lot of people don't understand that our tax dollars are paying for all that and the management of it. You view it as yours.
If I saw your house being robbed, I wouldn't say, “It’s his house being robbed.” It’s still unacceptable in my mind even though it might be your house that’s being robbed. If I witness that, I'm going to call.
Thanks. This has been great. We'll let you get back to the forest there and patrol or whatever you got going on. I always appreciate your time. You're welcome back anytime. If you guys ever want a spot in here, you have it.
I appreciate that. Thank you.
Thanks, everybody, for tuning in.
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