#117 Jason Loftus - Untamed Images
Jason Loftus - Professional Wildlife Photographer, Podcast Host, Conservationists & Outdoorsmen.
Jason has always had a passion for witnessing, capturing, and sharing his outdoor experiences. When he captures a moment, it becomes a historical record. A moment that can never be experienced or reproduced again. Wild Moments. Untamed Moments. Check out some of Jason Loftus's amazing work at Untamed Images. Tune in as Jason Loftus joins Bobby Marshall virtually and discuss wildlife, impacts on the environment, public lands, photography, world travels, culture, mountain life, and so much more.
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Jason Loftus - Untamed Images
Our guest for this episode is wildlife photographer, Jason Loftus. He's also the Co-host of the Wild And Exposed Podcast. Jason is an incredible wildlife photographer. If you are not following his Instagram page, Untamed Images by JL, you should be. If you don't have Instagram, I highly urge you to go check it out. His work truly speaks for itself. He's captured some amazing animals in incredible settings, but above all that, Jason is a great guy. I thoroughly enjoyed his company and I hope you enjoy the episode.
Jason, thanks for joining me. This has been a long time coming. I'm looking forward to sitting down and talking to you. I wish we were doing it in person, but we're going to do it remotely because it's been that long.
It's nice to see you. As you said, we've been trying to connect for quite a while. I'm excited to chat with you though, I love chatting about all things photography, getting outside, hunting, or whatever it might be. This should be fun.
We base a lot of the show around that, but it's more about showcasing individuals too, that are doing extraordinary things. That brings me right to your photos. They're incredible. I've been following you for some time. We've been going back and forth online well before I had the show, talking about elk and all that stuff. I shoot a little bit too. I wish I had the photo quality that you do. You're a mentor to me in that space. Your photos speak for themselves. If anybody goes and checks out Untamed Images on Instagram or your website, it's incredible stuff. You shoot some out here in Colorado, right?
I do. First of all, thank you. I'm very humbled. Those are some kind words there. I appreciate it. I don't look at myself as anybody other than somebody that enjoys it, has a passion for it, and tries to get after it, but that means a lot. I get all over the West, to be honest. I get into Colorado, Wyoming, and Idaho. I spend time in a lot of the parks that a lot of us love and a lot of public lands, and whatever's available at the time to photograph. It takes me all over the place, which is cool.
I'm an archery hunter, but more than anything, I enjoy being out with my camera because there's some work involved, but not as much work involved. To capture a still image of bull elk bugling and there's frost on him and steam coming out of his nose is one of the coolest things for me. It's so funny when I am out with my camera and I'm taking photos and have a big-bodied lens on there and a DSLR, people will stop and talk to you.
I'm sure that you found this right in the middle of everything too. They'll pull up next to you, "What are you shooting? Do you see that elk out there?" It's funny if I ever start to talk and I'm like, "Yes." They're like, "Where can I see some of your photos?" I always pitch mine first, but I'm like, "You got to check out this dude, Jason. He's awesome." I always show him your Instagram page. Good stuff.
We need to get on a shoot together then. Let's make it happen.
I'd love to go into Rocky Mountain National Park with you at some point or on any trip. Honestly, I feel like there's a lot I could learn because I'm still in that hobby mode.
It goes both ways. In hobby mode, there's nothing wrong with that. I shy away from calling myself a professional because I do it as a hobby mostly. I do it because it's my passion. I've been fortunate to be recognized by some magazines and stuff. That's all great. It's a good goal to have, but I'm with you. The thing that drives me is getting out there and having those experiences.
You mentioned that you're an archery hunter. I've been an archer in my entire life. What got me into photography is hunting. Being out there, seeing all the cool stuff, and having those experiences, I want to share that with other people. I still want to hunt. I still love to try to draw a good tag and go chase critters, even if it's over the counter, general season, or archery stuff here in Utah, but I find myself wanting to spend more time with my camera.
I try to explain it to people. It's hard because you get almost the same rush and adrenaline kick from capturing that image that you're like, "I nailed it. I got one." It's an accomplishment and it makes you feel like, "I got to get this different image now. What's the next one on my list?" The cool thing is hunting limits us to maybe a couple of months in the spring if you get into turkeys and stuff. Maybe 2 or 3 months in the fall, but with a camera you can "hunt" year-round which is huge. I found that out and my wife was excited, "You're going to get into photography. You'll be hunting less, right?" "Yes, I'll be hunting less," but she didn't realize that photography is year-round.
It's always the devil and the angel on the shoulders. It's like archery season and then also, it's right in the rut. That's the prime time to be out with your camera too. It's so hard for me to balance. It's like, "I'm going to dedicate seven days to archery and then the rest of September's dedicated to photography as much as possible."
I do the same thing. I try to do the get-out on the weekends during the archery general season and maybe, as you said, devote 2, 3, or 4 days of the week to that. The rest of the time is focused on photography. In Utah, the archery season ends right before the middle of the month of September. That's right when the ruts heat up, generally. It hasn't interfered too much.
I always try to go the third week here in Colorado because they're spicier.
That's what I've found that third week seems to be the best time to be out in the field for the best opportunities.
Is the season in Utah two weeks long as far as archery?
No. It starts in mid-August and goes to mid-September. There have been some changes in 2023, so I could be putting my foot in my mouth a little bit. There are some significant changes when it comes to the elk management plan in Utah. Don't take everything I'm saying to heart. There's a show, EHUNTR Podcast, that talked all about it. It's worth checking that one because they talked to the DW guy that was over that plan and all the changes. Regardless, the archery season is generally about that month period. They extended the archery season a little bit into the rut period. This 2023, the archery elk hunt might end around the 20th, 21st, or something like that.
There have been a lot of changes here in Colorado too. If you're coming back to get an over-the-counter tag, check game units. They've restructured it, especially since they've dropped some wolfs in here pretty soon. We have some here already. That's going to change things a little bit too.
That's an interesting conversation in and of itself.
We've had a lot of conversations about that. I have mixed emotions about it.
Me too.
We've spent so much time on it. I don't want to waste our time on it.
Everybody's been talking about it.
It's like that and the COVID conversations. Everybody's heard of it, "This happened to me during the pandemic," and yet it's hard not to bring it up. It is pretty current.
It's been a chunk of our life for the last few years.
It has changed a lot. We probably wouldn't have the success that we have had with the show if it wasn't for the pandemic. My background is in live entertainment and rock and roll production and shoot in some of those spaces. That came to a complete halt. This is something that I had set up prior to that. I'm glad that I did it because it kept me occupied. I'm a guy that likes to have something to do. It's been awesome and it's been good to connect with people like you and many others. Everybody that we've had on from fighters to professional skiers and had a ton of photographers on as well. It's my own greed to pick their brains.
You guys are doing a good job. I've read quite a few of them. The fun thing too is we do the Wild and Exposed Podcast. We've been doing that for a couple of years now. It's a slog sometimes, but the cool thing about it is it's so fun to talk to people and hear their stories, where they come from, and how they got into it. You learn something from everybody. If you have the right mindset and right attitude in life, you can learn something from everybody. It may not be the right thing to do. It may be something to avoid. That's something that a lot of people tend to forget sometimes.
If you have the right mindset and right attitude in life, you can learn something from everybody.
Doing this has made me better at learning from those people. When you go back and you listen to yourself or whatever, you pick yourself apart. Try not to interrupt somebody. When I first started this, I would interrupt people left and right because I wanted to get out what was ever in my mind. Listening to somebody when you're having a conversation is a battle in itself. That has made me understand people more than 100 episodes. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I enjoy learning from people and this has made me listen to their experiences and get to know them.
We talked about it a couple of episodes back. It's also an awesome way to have an uninterrupted conversation as long as you got a good internet connection or if you're sitting here in person. It's pretty awesome because, in this day and age, you're always connected to some device, electronic, or distraction, whether you're in a public space or not. There's always some stimulus.
I've learned a lot doing the podcast too. As you said, just becoming a better communicator. Many people think that a better communicator is somebody that can speak well, uses words wisely, has a good cadence, and avoids the ums and the uhs. To me, the real secret to being a good communicator is learning how to listen. It's learning how to hear what somebody's saying and learning how to probe and ask the right questions to keep the conversation interesting.
The real secret of being a good communicator is learning how to listen and hear what somebody's saying, and learning how to probe and ask the right questions to keep the conversation interesting.
Tell me more about your show. I've been fortunate and have been listening to you guys since you started. I don't get in every episode because I'm busy and there are so many shows these days, but what I have listened to has been awesome. It's you and there are several hosts that bounce back and forth, right?
It's been interesting and it has morphed over the years, but it started out with Ron Hayes, Mike Mauro, and Mark Raycroft. They went for a few years together doing their thing. Mark decided to leave the show for personal reasons, so they brought me in. I've been doing it for a few years now. We have Drew Hamilton is now a co-host as well. We've added a producer and his name's Brandon Day. We keep growing the team. Not all of us can be out at the same time, which is good because it'd be a little hectic sometimes when we're all on.
Now, we do a weekly show, which has been difficult. We've been able to maintain that for a few years for the most part. You'll see a lot of other shows do a monthly or every other week. We're considering maybe backing off a little bit or tailing off on that because it's so demanding. If you're going to prep property and be able to have a good conversation with somebody, you need to know a little background about them. You need to do a little bit of homework and research, so you can have a good conversation with them.
The whole idea behind the show is you get done shooting with your buds, you go back, and you're like, "That was so cool. What about this? Did you get that shot?" The brainchild of Mike was, "Why don't we start recording that and make it a show?" It morphed from there. We do a lot of that. We're going to get together, BS, catch up, and talk about what we've been out photographing and stuff, what we've learned, or new gear. We also have guests on quite a bit and talk to other photographers and hear their stories, where they came from, how they started, and talk about their work and stuff. It's been fun.
I enjoyed listening to it. I've gotten some pro tips. I feel like I'm listening to some pros in it. It's not all cut and dry like camera settings and all this. You guys banter a little bit. There's some humor involved. You tend to always have a guest too and they're incredible. I've discovered so many more people in the photography world because of you guys and I'm like, "These guys are amazing."
It's insane to me how many amazing photographers are out there. I'm constantly blown away. It's good too because it raises the bar for me too. I might think I've reached some level then you see some other photographers and I'm like, "My gosh, that guy. Holy cow." I'm never going to get there and I hope I never do, whatever there means. To me, it's all about the journey. We try to tell people all the time that we're all at different levels at different stages of this photography journey. It's a learning process and it's about how much time you can spend doing it and doing it is the learning.
It's all about the journey. We’re just on different levels at different stages of this photography journey, and it's a learning process.
It even goes beyond the camera. Once you get into some of these editing programs, you can get as crazy as you want. I try to stick to Lightroom because I'm familiar with it and know how to screw around in it a little bit, but a lot of that stuff can happen in a post. Some people put their own flavor on it, at that point.
As matter of fact, that's where most of the flavor comes from. It's in the post-processing. Gear can get you some of that if you buy a good prime lens that gets you 400-millimeter/2.8. it gives you all that creamy bokeh while shooting wide open. That can help, but nowadays, as you said, you can create that same effect and post.
It takes a little bit more time to edit, but once you have those skills, you can make almost anything out of any image. Not all the time, but most of the time. There's a point where it starts to look over-edited, in my opinion. There are some people out there that just edit a lot and there's nothing wrong with that. It's a style and art. Do your thing.
For me, the big thing is to try to be true about it. If you're creating composites or editing and you're adding things to images that weren't there, be real about it. Everybody can respect it and it'll still be the same thing, but people try to do things like adding things to images that weren't there and create this composite style image and then pretend like it's real. I lose a lot of respect for folks like that.
I take a lot of pride in your integrity. Are photojournalist or an artist? If you're a photojournalist, you don't do hardly anything to the image. If you're an artist, then the sky's the limit. It can be fun. There is so much to learn on the post-processing side. The tools are getting more powerful too, making it easier for anybody to do it.
If you're a photojournalist, you hardly do anything to the image. If you're an artist, then the sky's the limit.
I struggle sitting behind the computer for that long. I don't like it. I'd rather be out shooting. I came from the film era. The first real camera that I had was like a Fuji hand-me-down from one of my uncles. I took a photography class in middle school or junior high. I did the whole dark room and all that stuff. I learned composure from them and the different general rules like the rule of thirds and all that different composition.
Shooting on film, you only had so many shots and stuff. I've taken the DSLR back to that for me because I get more enjoyment out of it. It's more of a challenge to like, "There's a power pole right there. Let me see if I can get a different angle," or whatever it is, especially when you're dealing with wildlife. You got to anticipate it a little bit.
Growing up around these animals and hunting these animals has helped me in the photography sense like understanding animal behavior and being able to anticipate where they're going to go, where they might come out, and what's going on in the environment. Is there another bull elk bugle across this ridge, or whatever's going on? Do you find that with capturing some of your stuff?
At first, it made me a better wildlife photographer because I understood animal behavior to a degree, but then I thought I understood animal behavior. The more time I spent in the field with animals like elk and spent way more time not just in hunting season, but all year round with those animals, it was incredible to me how much more I learned about animal behavior.
I wouldn't say it made me a better hunter, because that's not fair. It's not like I'm out there stacking up elk every year like I'd like to be. It made me have a better respect for the animal themselves, the amount of interaction they have year-round, the number of herd dynamics there, what they're doing when they're doing certain things, and why are they doing that.
I've talked about it before in another show, but I've had the benefit of watching firsthand right there in my face, a cow bugle, for example. I've seen those multiple times. People talk about it. I've tried to catch it on video multiple times, but I have never been able to. It's crazy. It's that first part of the bugle without the chuckle. I've heard a cow do it multiple times. I've heard bulls moo like a cow. The amount of verbal communication that these animals have is incredible. It's all the different things and what it means, how are they doing, and why are they doing it. The cow in an estrous call that we've all heard about, where they get super whiny. I've heard those multiple times now in the field during the rut.
Doing photography and being in places where they're not necessarily hunted, you get a chance to see what the ruts are all about too. I've had the opportunity to stand in the middle of multiple rut bulls. There are 5 or 6 bulls or herd-style bulls that are going at it and trying to figure out and gain dominance over the cows so they can breed them.
You've got all these satellite bulls that are sneaking in and breeding cows when the bulls are fighting. It's crazy. It's pandemonium, but it's such an amazing thing to witness and experience. It benefited me up front as a photographer, but then I feel like it made me a better photographer and hunter overall because of the time in the field I spend with the animals.
I've never thought about it the other way, but that makes a lot of sense. We're in Evergreen, Colorado, and the studio's right on Main Street. I don't think you've been here yet, have you? We've gone back and forth about trying to get you up here, but you need to come in September or October because we have some 300 to 400 class bulls running around.
The hard part here is because there are so many subdivisions and houses and stuff, it's trying to capture that image where there's nothing behind them like a car, a road, or a sidewalk. It's pretty amazing because you don't see the bulls all year round here until maybe two days before the archery season starts.
We have a golf course that runs right along a lake. It's the perfect habitat for him. The same bull I've shot for seven years with my camera keeps coming back and each year, he's a little bit different. With some of the local photographers, we've named him. We're all up at 4:00 AM or 5:00 AM driving around trying to find the different herds and stuff around here, but it's cool to see them in that environment and that close. I understand what you're saying.
A lot of these places where you go in and shoot, like maybe Rocky Mountain National Park or something like that, don't have that hunting pressure. You can experience what the animals are like. For example, going out and hunting here in Colorado, there's been such an increase in the frequency of the number of people that they see, whether they're recreating in the summer or getting chased by bull hunters that the elks shut up. They don't even bugle in some of these spots. You get on the front range side of the divide, and if it's not on private property, they're not bugling.
Wait until the wolves come because that will change that even more significantly and they won't be talking near as much as soon as they get trained. You see that with the Yellowstone elk quite a bit and elks in the Idaho and Wyoming areas where they've gotten the wolves to become pretty prevalent. They've learned to adjust to survive. You don't hear the amount of bugling and things that you may have had in the past. All those things affected the dynamics of their behaviors and how they communicate. When you're in an area where there's no pressure and you don't have those things, then you get to see that natural behavior, which is cool.
I enjoy it and I hope that it doesn't change too much here because I've grown up around it. It's one of those things in the middle of the night, you wake up and it sounds like Jurassic Park outside your bedroom window. It's pretty special. I want to dive into some of the photos and stuff that you've been able to do, and trips that you've been on. I saw a post with a snow leopard. Did you catch a snow leopard or something on camera?
No, I wish. That's on the list for sure. I've never been able to get over there to do that. I've tentatively set up a guy that does that. It's a whole ordeal. It's all about how much time you can spend in the field over there. They get wild. The snow leopard is not an easy thing. Snow leopards are incredible. The other thing that's blowing my mind is being in photography. I've always had an appreciation for animals in general. I've always loved animals. Because of my hunting background, I was focused on waterfowl, big games like deer, elk, and stuff like that. I was spending time chasing with my bows, shotguns, and stuff.
With this photography thing, every time I photograph a new animal, I get another appreciation for them. It forces me to want to learn more about them, dive in, and learn their behaviors and why they do the thing that I photographed. What was that all about? Are they communicating? Are they posturing? What are they doing? It's cool to learn so much more about all these different animals and there are so many animals on the planet that we could be out there trying to chase around and photograph.
Every time I photograph a new animal, I get another appreciation for them. It forces me to want to learn more about them and dive in and learn their behaviors and why they do that thing that I just photographed.
I went to Africa and was able to check that off the list, but all that did is drive me now to want to be out in Africa every year if I can because it was incredible. There's something about being around all those animals that not only can but do eat people every year. It's different here in the United States. We have predators. We have grizzly bears, mountain lions, and black bears that attack and kill people, but most people that have encountered those critters do not have a single problem.
Over there in Africa, if you're out on your own running around, you come across a lion, and you don't have a weapon, you're probably going to get eaten. That's the reality of it. It's pretty wild to be in that environment and to be around all those predators that regularly do take humans. To be so close to them, photograph them and their behaviors, and do it in a safe way is incredible to me. Every time you turn around, there's an opportunity.
I've spent a lot of time around black bears here in the States. I have never gotten a wild cougar yet. That's high on the list too. Black bears, grizzly bears, and all those other predators are amazing to spend time around. You learn how to behave around them so that you don't put yourself in a situation where you're in danger and at risk.
My whole mentality about predators has changed. It used to be as a hunter, predators are bad and I get rid of all the predators. As I've learned to be more of a conservationist, photographer, and hunter, I've learned that there's a place for those critters on the landscape. They're amazing and they serve a purpose. They got to be managed, in my opinion, like everything else.
We don't live in a utopia anymore where they can be left to their own accord. Could they live and survive? Yes, probably, but what happens when a wolf pack is left to its own design? They will eat themselves out of the house and home, and then they end up killing each other too. You then have these big swings and cycles.
I couldn't agree more with you on that. It was well said. I have a mad appreciation for them too. Catching one of them in the wild is so much rare than catching a mule deer or elk. It's a pretty special moment.
I'm getting ready to go to Svalbard, Norway, and to go focus on polar bears. Between the show and this photography thing, it's opened a ton of doors for me to be able to go out and chase some amazing bucket list items that I would've never thought I'd be doing in my lifetime, to be honest. I never had the desire to go photograph polar bears before until I got serious with photography. The cool thing is you not only get a photograph, but you get to have that experience and opportunity to see, watch, and learn about them. The sky is the limit. Wherever you go, there's something to photograph for the most part.
Have you been to Norway before?
I never have. I'm looking forward to it.
It is one special spot. I've been fortunate with some of the bands I toured with, we would do some festivals there and stuff in the summer. It's a cool spot. I have some beautiful landscape photos. I got super into doing some World War II history photos and stuff back in the day. There's so much history there. It's a very special space.
One thing that I've started doing, maybe it's because I'm not as confident in my photography skills sometimes, is taking in the moment every once in a while and not being so focused on taking a killer photo. My biggest problem is time and then going back through those photos and trying to edit. I'm not a rapid shooter or anything like that. I'm a one-click guy at a time. Do you ever find yourself doing that where it's like, "I'm going to soak at the moment and not worry about getting the shot?" In the position you're in, is there any pressure when sponsors or maybe a magazine hired you as a contractor to get published? Do you ever find yourself like, "This is stressful?"
I've been able to avoid the stressful part of it. Unless you're on assignment, then it's a little different. In general, you're out there trying to capture whatever you can capture. A lot of times, you have an image in your mind that you want to capture. It might be that I'm trying to get the cover of this magazine so I know what they're looking for and I want to try to make that happen. You then try to put yourself in the right position to get that image.
I don't feel the pressure so much. The pressure that I do feel is of my own accord. The more I do this, the more I go, "I've got the images I need. I am going to sit back, enjoy this, and soak it in." As a matter of fact, in most of those rut balls that I've experienced, I'm not doing much photographing because most of the time, it's so chaotic. You can't focus on anything to photograph. I'll be honest, it's way more incredible to sit back and watch it all happen. It's incredible.
You have to watch your back. There's been a few times when I've been shooting a bull or something. Next thing there was another 6x6 behind me that I had never seen before. I'm like, "Now, I'm in between them."
There are some downsides of shooting in places like that where they don't get pressure too. Elk aren't generally very aggressive to people, but they can be and they do. You got to be careful. You can put yourself in a situation where you could get attacked and gored. When you hear about elk attacking people, it's never the wild. It's always in a place like Rocky Mountain, Estes Park, or somewhere like that.
People can be stupid. I'm out there with my 300 to 500 lens and giving those animals some space so they can naturally move into wherever they want to go. It's crazy. You'll see somebody pull off or block a road, get out with their cell phone, and walk right up to a bull like it's not going to do anything. I've seen a couple of people get chased either around the car. I've seen one person got ran over good.
There have been a few times over the last few years where a couple of people got gored and killed over at Rocky Mountain. The point I'm making is it does happen. You got to be smart. I've been charged by the bulls more than once. Am I pushing the envelope? I'm well within the rules of the park, but you got to pay attention to their behaviors. They are all frustrated, rutted up, and aggressive, and all they're trying to do is show you that they're the man so that you don't mess with their cows. Most of the time, they keep us separate from the other elks. Sometimes they get so frustrated and so in the moment that they tend to forget sometimes. That's when the situations get weird.
I had a situation a couple of years ago with that famous bull over there, Bruno. I was about 100 yards away from the herd. I was sitting on a rock minding my business. I've spent enough time with elk to know that when a bull starts to run away from the herd, there's another bull coming in or something that he's trying to chase off. I'm sitting on this rock 100 yards away in the middle of the day, with no shots to be had, and just waiting until the light gets right and whatever. It's 100 yards away and this bull starts running toward me. I'm looking around. I'm like, "What's going on?" Is there a satellite bull coming in or something? There's nothing behind me or nothing going on.
This all happened pretty quickly, but it starts to dawn on me, "He's looking at me." I can't look at him. I realized, "He's coming at me." I get up off the rock and I start running up the hill and get up behind a tree. He comes right up close to me and puts his head down. He then turns around and walks back to his herd. I'm like, "What was that all about?" I was minding my business. It's like, "I get it. I'll stay away." Those moments are fun and exciting too, but if I'd been snoozing, not paying attention, or sitting on that rock, who knows what would've happened?
When I'm out shooting, I always try to have some shield, whether it's a pickup or another car, and an exit plan. Elk loves being down around the lake right here in town. There are all these cattails and it's a marshy area and they love being in there, especially at that time of year. There's an elevated wooden walkway there and you can find yourself trapped. It is a bad spot to be in. Unless you're jumping out and getting your gear muddy, you can get trapped on that little bridge pretty well and have them come in both ways.
Do you remember they used to do the Darwin Awards? It was an email thing and you'd get this email about the Darwin Awards. It was always some stupid people doing stupid crap that ends up either getting them killed or hurt pretty badly. I get so frustrated with how stupid people are. I think you let Darwinism do its thing. These people that are out there doing those things, trying to get a selfie with the big bull elk, and went in the middle of the rut, and get too close. A little of this is letting nature take its course. You get the Tourons of Yellowstone.
I was going to bring that up. It's one of my favorite Instagram pages for sure. It never surprises me. You've spent a lot of time in Yellowstone, haven't you? I was planning a photography trip up there and I reached out to you. This is where we first started talking and you turned me on to some awesome spots. You were so gracious with it. I appreciate that. I don't think I've had a chance to thank you.
I'm glad it worked out for you. This thing can be super competitive and it is very competitive for the professionals and the folks that are trying to be published in that. At the same time, it's not why I'm doing it. It's nice, but it's not how I make my living. For me to be able to help somebody else out and either teach them something or show them a place to go, I'm an advertisement, but I'm not going to tell everybody about my spots.
The same rules apply to hunting.
Yellowstone is a national park. If somebody wants to go there, have some fun, and photograph some stuff, there are areas to focus on. If you want bears or elk, there's a better time of the year to go and a better place to focus on. I've been fortunate to learn those things, tricks, and the times of the year to go to and the right places over the years. In those public places, I'm willing to help somebody out.
You were very gracious with it. Thank you again. How much time do you take being outside and shooting? It shows on your page. You have some incredible stuff and I know how much time it takes for me to capture something. Especially on these trips, you might go out for a day and see nothing. Especially, if you're trying to shoot wolfs or anything like that. Good luck.
I was in Yellowstone. We helped led a tour on private coaches. It's out of West Yellowstone. Two of the days were pretty good, and one day was pretty much a bust. To have 2 days out of 3 is good. More than likely, you'll be lucky if you get 1 good day and then 2 okay days. To your point, that's 100% valid. It's all about putting time in the field. That's what's going to give you the best opportunities to capture the images you want. It's hard because it's a balancing act.
I'm fortunate I work for a Fortune 250 company that I have lots of benefits. I've been there a long time. I get a lot of vacation time. I use my time accordingly. I try to spend as much time as I can photographing wildlife. A lot of times I'm able to do two 3-day weekends and get what I need. Other times, I'm devoting 1 week or 10 days at a time to trying to get out and do that stuff.
If somebody wants to do it, it's about spending time doing the photography thing, spending the time with the animals you want to learn about, and then going out there doing it. Learn how to work your camera and do the post-processing stuff. There are plenty of YouTube videos out there to do all that stuff and how to set your camera up.
Wildlife Photography: Photographing wildlife is about spending time with the animals you want to learn with and learn about, and then going out there and learning how to work your camera and do the post-processing stuff.
There's no reason that somebody can't get into this thing nowadays, especially with the new technology and these mirrorless cameras. It's shoot in auto mode. It's almost cheating which is good. There's nothing wrong with that. I act like I'm the guy that was shooting the film and I never was. I came in in the DSLR phase, which was even crazier than the film days. The memory is cheap. I can take 100,000 photos and that didn't cost me anything other than my time to go through them.
I'm not trying to say that the new mirrorless stuff is the only advantage as of late, but with that mirrorless technology, you can see exactly what your exposure looks like on the camera in real time. Before you had to understand the exposure triangle to be able to expose things properly and to know what you're trying to capture and do creatively with your camera.
I spend as much time as I can. It's hard to put a number to it. It's a lot of time in the field. It's a lot of weekends, nights after work, and weeks at a time during the elk and the deer rut. I'm a grandpa. I'm an empty nester now. My youngest son is out on a mission for our church. My wife and I are empty nesters and we have grandkids whom we love spending time with. I try to balance that with spending time with my family and spending time with those grandkids and doing trips with my family too. I got to be careful. I got to put the camera down once in a while and be with my family. I've learned to be somewhat successful with that too.
It's a balancing act. That's awesome that you get to spend that amount of time. I thought that this was a full-time gig for you with the quality of your stuff and how much time you put into it. You might as well have two full-time jobs.
With the show too, I'd say it's pretty close to two full-time jobs.
You're crushing it. Keep it up. I love it.
I appreciate it.
What are you shooting these days? Have you made the jump to Sony or are you a Nikon guy? One of the coolest things that you do on Instagram that you started doing in the last couple of years or so is you put your camera settings behind whatever incredible photo that you've taken. It'll tell you the aperture, f-stop, all that stuff that you were shooting at, the camera setting, and shutter speed, which is super cool. It's helped me with some things. I'm like, "That makes a lot of sense."
I'm glad it helps. I get a lot of feedback from folks. A lot of people comment and say, "I appreciate you sharing that information." To me, it's funny because once you get to a certain point in your journey, you don't need that. I don't mean bad in any way, shape, or form. You understand what you're trying to do and what you're trying to capture. You understand that exposure triangle and you know that, "If I'm trying to get blurry stuff, I need to be 160th of 1 second and that means I'm going to need to keep my light down because it's bright outside. I need to crank my aperture up. I need to have my ISO all the way to the bottom." If I know, what am I trying to capture, I have a rough idea of what my settings are going to be before I even pick up my camera.
Once you get to a certain point in your journey, you understand what you're trying to do and what you're trying to capture.
For people that are learning it, it's a big deal because they're not thinking that way. They're thinking, "How did he create that image?" You see the details, but what's funny is there are a lot of ways that I could have done that image. I could have had my aperture different, my shutter speed slower, or my ISO higher, but that's just what I chose for the situation. It's not like I'm giving away any secrets or anything. A lot of people do say that it's helpful for them. If it's helpful for people, then why not? I'll throw it out there. It's not a big deal for me.
From a geek side of me, I enjoy looking at that like, "That makes a lot of sense." I'm always a guy that I'm too worried about blurring out antlers or something like that. I tend to shoot a little higher on the f-stop and it's like, "I can go lower because look at what Jason just got."
That's smart. I've talked about one of my mentors a lot. He probably would be mad if I keep bringing him up, but it's Harlan Cooper who's another incredible wildlife photographer. He's a mentor to me and has taught me some of the key tricks or ways to think about things that have helped me become the photographer I am. There are a lot of people that have been a part of my journey and have contributed to my success. I give all those people credit, but the couple of things that Harlan always taught me helped me become who I am.
It's important to have a mentor too. That's one thing I was going to bring up. If you're serious about photography, I would find a mentor or somebody whom you can bounce ideas off and that'll tell you the truth. You got to have thick skin. I've sent stuff to Harlan before and said, "This is killer." He is like, "No." I'm like, "Why? What's wrong?" He'll tell me, "You got that stick and it's coming out of the back of its head in the background. It's not going to work." I'll fight them and I'm like, "Dang it. You're right." It's just not the image. If you have that, then that helps you become a better photographer a lot faster.
If you're serious about photography, find a mentor, somebody that you can bounce ideas off and tell you the truth. That helps you become a better photographer a lot faster.
How did you end up meeting Harlan and how did you make that connection? Was it something like you reached out to him?
It's a funny story. I'd been following him on Facebook for quite a while. I loved his work. We were at the Hunt Expo here in Utah years ago. He come up and introduced himself to me. He'd been seeing some of the stuff that I had been doing back then. It was all rookie. For whatever reason, he saw another photographer in the area that he could potentially go shoot with and introduced himself. It sounds funny, but I was fangirling. I was like, "You're Harlan Cooper? I've been following your stuff forever. It's incredible."
It's the same thing I'm doing with you right now.
We hit it off and stayed in touch. We're communicating back and forth and it built into friendship. We started shooting together a little bit. He doesn't like shooting with a lot of people. He keeps a lot of things close to the vest. Again, as I said, he's taught me so many things like how to think about exposure and how to do certain things. He always talks about shooting at a higher aperture. I don't think he shoots anything less than F8 and he tells me all the time. He's like, "Jason, you got to shoot in a higher aperture." I still end up shooting wide open a lot because I want to get as much light as I can.
It's funny that you said that you tend to shoot at a higher aperture. It's smart to do. There are a lot of ways to skin a cat. You can shoot a higher aperture or move back a little bit too. If you move back, your focal plane changes and it gets wider. The further you are away from your subject, the bigger your aperture gets as well without changing your aperture.
There's an app out there called PhotoPills. For example, you take a photo of a bull, if you're right in their face and you're at point blank and not getting all their antlers in with a 600 millimeter at F4, you're going to have parts of the face and parts of the antlers that are not in focus. If you're going to do that and want as much focus as possible, what do you have to do? There are these apps out there and PhotoPills is the best one in my opinion. You can calculate it. It's math. How close are you to the subject? What aperture are you shooting at? What millimeter are you shooting at? It'll tell you how wide your focal plane is or what you can expect to have in focus.
Another good friend of mine, Kelly Elmer, who's been my sidekick for a lot of the adventures that I go on and the overnight trips and stuff. We shoot quite a bit together too. He'll take his range finder and 400 millimeters, and ranges how far he is. "Here's how far I am for this 400-millimeter and have the elk in full frame. It has got the body, the antlers, and everything. He does the calculation with the PhotoPills and he knows that, "How far away from the elk do I need to be to get that elk in focus? What does my aperture need to be?"
If you're shooting wide open at 400 millimeters at 2.8 and 60 yards away, I don't know what the exact will focal plane is, but it's big enough that you can get the entire animal in focus. These are the things that the hardcore guys are doing. They're constantly trying to, "How do I up my game? How do I make sure everything I need to know about a scenario so I can just make adjustments on the fly and get the shot that I'm looking for." That's what separates the newer folks from the folks that have been doing it for a long time.
I'm enjoying this. As I said, it's for my own greed. You've shot on Nikon for a number of years, haven't you? Are you still or you've gone down that road with the mirrorless?
I started with Nikon. I loved my gear. I had the D850 with the 500-millimeter prime. It was a dream combination. I was keeping up with technology. I tried the Sony for a little bit and wasn't happy at the time I was shooting the A7R IV with a 200 to 600, and that was never a good combination. I struggled with that and the color schemes. I decided to not go that route. Right after that, the Canon R5 came out and it had that 100 to 500 lens that came out with it.
I picked that up and still had my Nikon gear and started shooting that R5. I was like, "This is incredible. This thing is insane." I liked the files, colors, and what I was getting. At the time, this is a reasonable switch. I can make this switch and be good. I started to sell my gear and made the switch. I'd bought a new 600-millimeter prime for the Canon R5 and a couple of months later, they announced the Z9. If they would've come out with the Z9 earlier, I probably would still be shooting Nikon.
If you're shooting Sony or Cannon, you're going to be fine. Even with the Nikon stuff, they've gone a long way, but they're having some challenges and quality issues with some of their cameras. They're having some issues with their software. They're having a hard time getting products to the customers. If you want that new 400-millimeter 1.4 TC built-in that they've come out with, most guys are on a waitlist. If you're not on a waitlist now, you won't even be able to pretend to buy that lens for another couple of years. Some of those things have made me not regret the switch. I'm all in on Canon now and have been shooting the R5 for a couple of years.
I haven't made the jump to mirrorless yet. I have a couple of cameras. I have a D750 and then an 850 as well. I like both of those. I got the incredible glass for it. I don't do it enough for me to make the jump to mirrorless. I'm glad that you told me that because I wanted to go down the Nikon mirrorless road, but all my photographer buddies are either shooting Sony or Canon.
It's sad too because Nikon still has good glass. They've got a history of good products. It's hard for me because I'm such a Nikon fan. If you were going to make the switch to mirrorless, I would highly recommend renting a Z9 and shooting it with the adapter and see if it's something you want to do. You could go mirrorless and go Cannon or Sony and be fine, but as you said, it's hard because you're investing in all that glass. It's a lot of commitment. You're not going to sell that stuff and make a ton of money because the new technology's mirrorless. If you're selling DSLR-style equipment, there's still a market for it, but you're not going to get near what you could if things were still in the DSLR world.
From your experience, shooting those old DSLR lenses on a mirrorless camera, do they have that pretty dialed in with some of those adapters and stuff?
If you go with Sony, you don't have to worry about it all. They're mirrorless forever. On the Cannon stuff, it's been great. I've heard some issues with the Nikon stuff, but I honestly don't know. I've never done it, but my buddy, Harlan shoots a lot of EF glass on his R5 bodies. He shoots them adapted. He loves it and he never had a problem.
I'm curious to find out, but that's a good approach to just rent and then take it out shooting for a weekend or something and figure it out. I had a crazy moment a couple weeks ago where I got this urge to buy a Fujifilm point-and-shoot. It was an impulse buy. I got an X100V, but that's an amazing little mirrorless camera for doing portraits and stuff in the studio and all that. Have you shot on one of those?
No, I haven't shot much with Micro Four Thirds equipment like Olympus.
It's a fixed lens. It's pretty boring. I'd rather pick up my Nikon body and then go shoot that with all the settings, buttons, knobs, and stuff. It's a little bit different, but it's a good little point-and-shoot.
There's a place for a lot of that stuff. When you're going on vacation, for example, do you want to be hauling around a DSLR and 24 to 70 lens?
It's a lot of weight.
Depending on what you're going on vacation to do, but for me, there's a place for those types of cameras.
When do you take off to Norway?
I leave on the first part of May 2023. It's coming up here pretty quickly.
What is the process? Do you fly into Oslo and then, are there polar bears close to there? How far do you have to go to get out to that? Is it a boat ride or something?
A lot of people want to go do this trip to see the landscape, the ocean, the ice, the critters, and stuff too, without even taking a camera. You fly into Oslo, Norway, and then from there, you take a 3 or 4-hour flight north to the island of Svalbard. Svalbard is a pretty large island up there in the Arctic Ocean. From there you get on an icebreaker boat and we live on that boat for seven days out on the Arctic Ocean with the sea ice. We're looking for polar bears, walruses, Arctic foxes, and all the critters.
When you see something, you go, get zodiacs, cruise, and photograph whatever the situation is. It's light a lot most of the day that time of year. You could be shooting anything pretty much at any time of day. It's going to be quite the experience, living on the icebreaker, the whole process of getting there, and seeing the country and the critters. I'm super excited about it.
Is there a crazy gear list that comes along that's provided by the guide or something like, "You need to have X, Y, and Z?" I'm sure you're going to have to have some winter gear and stuff like that.
It's all the stuff that I already have. They do give you a list, but as far as keeping our camera gear realistic and that as well, and how to keep it dry, when you're in the zodiacs and stuff, there are some wet bags and some things that they recommend. There's a little bit of that. Other than that, it's just how I am going to get it there, trying to keep my weights down and stuff, and then making sure I've got layers to wear so I keep myself warm. Temperature-wise, that time of year you're in the 20s to 30s Fahrenheit. That seems like it's not that big of a deal.
It's not too bad.
When you're on the ocean though, that's a different ballgame. It's still cold. You're standing there and not doing a lot of walking and moving. You're on a zodiac or on the ice. It can be quite a bit colder. Go prepared and take all the right gear and clothing, and it should be amazing.
Have you ever had any catastrophic losses to camera gear and stuff being out in the field? Have there ever been any heartbreaking moments? Do you have backup gear in a situation like that? I know how expensive it is to get a cheeseburger in Oslo, so I could imagine that this trip is a pretty dime.
It's not cheap and it's one of those you want to have all the right gear and backup gear too. I had one experience when I was shooting where I dropped my D810 with my 200 to 500 lens on it. It busted the lens off the camera and it ruined the lens. The body had to have some repairs on it too. I learned from that. Now, I'll have two R5 bodies, 600-millimeter with the 1/4, 100 to 500 lens, and landscape lens with me. The chances of things going wrong with both cameras or all my lenses are pretty slim. I should be good. I've never had a problem other than that. I've learned that it's smart with the amount of money I have on my camera gear that I carry insurance.
The inland marine insurance is the shit. It's awesome. We have it up on all the show gear and the photography gear. It's come into play a couple of times.
It's critical.
Even when it's just an airline losing something.
That's the cool thing is that it covers all that like damage for whatever reason, theft, and loss. It's pretty important to have.
Out of all the stuff that you've shot and some of the trips that you've been on, is there one that stands out? They're all special, but is there one that's like, "I can't wait to go do that again," or something along those lines?
I love the North American big game stuff. My favorites are mule deer, elk, and bighorn sheep have become a big favorite of mine.
You have some incredible sheep photos.
Thank you. Waterfowl is a very big passion of mine. I've got a lot of waterfowl birds that check off my list and places I want to go to photograph them. The one that stands out the most is Africa and it's probably because it's the most recent one. Africa is just incredible. Every time you go there, you're going to have different experiences. There are so many opportunities to photograph things over there, which is hard to beat. Here you might go out in the field and you got the first couple of hours in the day and the last couple of hours of the evening, and pretty much you're done. Over there, you're shooting things all day long, every day. It's hard to beat that way.
Wildlife Photography: Africa is incredible. Every time you go there, you're going to have different experiences. There are so many opportunities to photograph things, which is hard to beat.
That's what I'm looking forward to the most. This Oslo trip is a big one. I'm getting back to Africa at some point here soon. There are other places too. In 2024, we're going to Costa Rica for a few days and going to try to take the wives with us, do some combination, some vacationing/photography, which we don't do a lot, but once in a while, it works. I took my wife and my son on the Africa trip and that worked out well because they loved every minute of it. I was able to take photos while we were having those experiences together. My wife's already asking about going back to Africa because she loved all the animals.
It's a special spot. Where were you in Africa specifically?
We were in South Africa. We flew to Johannesburg and spent most of our time in and around Kruger National Park.
It's awesome there. I'm fortunate that I got to spend some time there. Cape Town is amazing to go out and shoot birds, fish, and all kinds of different stuff too. It's pretty wild. I appreciate you being on the show. Let's dive a little bit more into your show. What do you guys got coming up with that and what can people expect for guests coming up?
We're caught up right now, which is not always a good thing. As a host, you want to try to have some of the kitties, so you're not scrambling, but we're in a situation right now where we're caught up. There are not a lot of guests that have been on the schedule yet. We're working on that, but we'll have some more cool guests coming up. We'll have some repeat guests like Doug Gardner.
We had released a couple of episodes, one with Doug Gardner where he talked about the bear footage that he got. It's incredible. It's Cypress bears that are in the swamp and in the old cypress trees. He got the first-ever documented footage of the bear taking the cubs from the tree to the bank and how that happens. It was the whole story behind how that was captured and what it took is just incredible. That's a good episode to go listen to. We talked to Ben Masters who does Fin and Fur Productions. He's famous for movies like Unbranded.
Did some wild horse stuff, right?
Unbranded was the one that he did there. He's got a ton of other movies that he's done. He's a solid dude and fun to listen to. He tells some great stories as well. We try to have some legitimate folks that are professionals in the industry and that can tell good stories and share "secrets" with us about how they're approaching life and their business. It's more of that and more of the guys chatting, bantering back and forth, harassing each other, and catching up on what we've been up to and out in the field. It should be fun.
Do you have a trip planned to Colorado coming up at all anytime soon?
Not anytime soon with the vacation restrictions I've got with this two-week trip to Oslo. It ends up being a two-week trip on the front end and back-end travel, getting there, and everything. We're spending a couple of days in Svalbard shooting Arctic foxes and some stuff too. I don't have any plans right now. Sometimes I try to get out there in July for velvet bulls and stuff. I will skip that this 2023 because of limitations on time, but I'll probably be back that way in October or November timeframe or when the deer start calling my name, and my neck will start to swell up. I'll start getting a little ready myself. You got to go answer the call.
I hardly ever get out of Evergreen. I don't know why I haven't done this. I'm kicking myself in the ass for not getting over and shooting Brutus. Some of the photos that you have of him are stunning. Was he the bull that you have with the all-black background and it's those long tines? Is that the same bull?
Yes, that was him. I have a lot of history at that bull. I was fortunate enough to shoot him years ago. At that time, the only people photographing that bull were me, Harlan Cooper, and a guy named John DePalma, who's a good friend of mine and another great photographer. We had him to ourselves for the whole of September back then, but you know how social media is and that. It didn't stay a secret very long. The next year, there were fifteen or so folks and the next year, there were 40 or so folks. The next year, there were 100 folks. Now, it's gotten out of control.
Rocky Mountain National Park has become so well-known and part of it because of that bull, but partly because of it's a great place to visit. I don't blame anybody for wanting to go over there and photograph at all. it's incredible, but I'd recommend it to anybody. A lot of the locals in Denver go up there on the weekends and on the weeknights, and set up their chairs around the meadow and witnessed the rut.
It's insane. We've had such an influx of people and that was another reason I started this show which leads me to my next thing. I like to ask people from all kinds of different walks of life, whether they're professional rock climbers, professional photographers, or whatever, what are some things that you notice that people could be doing better? We already talked about Tourons of Yellowstone and these people running around with cell phones, running right up to animals and not giving them a little bit of space. Outside of that, what are some other things that you notice that get under your skin?
I've brought this up multiple times on the show. We've had so many people leaving inner-city situations. This is new and exciting and they move into a mountain community or maybe they're living in Denver and are visiting a mountain community. This is across the Rocky Mountain region and probably all over the world. The pandemic pushed people into some of these spots. It made people realize, "I can work remotely now. I could live anywhere I want. Why wouldn't I live in this beautiful spot?"
Me growing up here and having some good influences from grandfathers, uncles, and stuff that taught me to be a steward of the land and take care of it. "There's nobody cleaning up after you. You should clean up after other people." It was one of the catalysts for starting this show. I like to ask people that have spent a ton of time outside, what are some of the most common things that you're seeing that people could be doing better? I don't think people are doing stuff on purpose. They just don't know better.
I would agree with that for the most part. Most people want to do the right thing and they don't know better, but I also think anybody that drops their gum wrapper or a soda can on the ground when they're up there in the mountains is just ignorance. It's flat-out stupidity and ignorance. They're doing it on purpose and it's just laziness.
For the most part, most people want to do the right thing, but they just don't know better. But anybody that's just drops their gum wrapper or soda can on the ground when they're up in the mountains, that's just ignorance.
I'm like you. I was always taught when I see garbage, I have pick to it up even if it's not mine. When we went camping, my dad would always make us leave the campground better than we found it. Make sure we went around and picked up all the garbage and all that stuff. I oftentimes pick up trash when I'm out in the mountains, in parks, and stuff doing my thing.
People were better about that stuff, but a lot of people have crappy attitudes about all that stuff. Some of it comes from ignorance, but some of it comes from who they are. They weren't taught that way in all fairness. From that standpoint, visitors could do a better job of knowing the rules. Going back to the Darwinism thing, being smart and knowing that you need to give these animals their space. If they read any of the packets at all, they'd understand that they're not supposed to be within any closer than 25 yards of the animals. They should respect that and give them their space.
All of us like to have those close encounters and I've had some. It's insanely close when you think about it. That's why most of us with our big cameras, we do that for a reason. Those lenses give us that space. We can have those encounters and get those images without interfering with what they're doing and changing their behavior.
A lot of it too is respecting the situation. A lot of photographers get excited and got caught up in the moment. It ends up being an all-out brawl. You'll see a group of photographers mulling an animal. I'll be lying if I said I wasn't ever part of that before. I have been before. There's no question. As I've matured or learned, I find myself wanting to avoid those situations more than be a part of them. I find myself wanting to be less a part of those things and go find my own stuff to photograph.
It doesn't have to be the biggest bull or the biggest buck on the mountain. It can be a nice bull or buck, and I can still get some good images and have that critter to myself maybe, or with a couple of buddies, and not have everybody on social media have the exact same animal and all the exact same poses. What's gotten discouraging for me over the last few years is these animals get found and people know where they're at, and every single time I open my Instagram feed, I'm seeing that fricking same buck or that fricking same bull from 800 different photographers.
There are pluses and minuses. I get it. It's awesome and so many people want to be out doing it, but at the same time, we all have to be careful. You hear people talk about loving our wild places to death and the sad reality is if we keep it up, they're going to start shutting places down more. They'll start limiting access more. All these people want to access those experiences but will be limited to be able to do it. You'll have to know about the reservation systems and pay extra money. They're doing all those things supposedly to try to control the amount of impact on the animals in the parks.
That's some of the things I see. When I think about social media, I get pretty discouraged. There are some folks out there that are not telling true stories. They're being phony. They're creating a persona and doing things that lead people to believe that are real but aren't real. Anybody that knows, knows but for the most part, the people that don't know think this person's amazing and give them all this credit and kudos. Some of that stuff drives me insane. I keep my mouth shut and do my thing. Maybe I'm the dummy because I'm not willing to do that and I'll never be that person, but I don't like that.
That's why you're sitting here with me right now too. I don't want anything to do with those assholes. I appreciate it.
I appreciate that too. I could go on and on. There's probably a lot of things that bug me. I'm getting old and crotchety.
I feel you 100%. There's nothing more special than having you. As much as I love having my buddies there and stuff too, having a moment with those animals like that big bull, buck, bear, or whatever, and your camera, it's pretty special. I feel like there's enough out there for everybody too.
I love what you said and I'm going to do more of it. The whole idea of putting the camera down once in a while, being there, and taking it in. You don't want to live life behind your viewfinder. That's something that's important to remember. It's a completely different world when you step back and look at the whole picture.
Don't live your entire life behind a viewfinder. It's a completely different world when you step back and look at the whole picture.
That applies to cell phones too. We brought it up in the last episode with my buddy Marc Montoya. We're talking about being in the moment. He's a UFC fighter coach and there's a ton of stuff going on and he could be all over social and have this huge social following. It's more about what he's doing, staying focused, staying sharp, staying in the moment, and enjoying the moment. A lot of people are caught up, even when you go to your kid's soccer game. It's like, "I got to get this goal."
We could all do it a little bit. It's not just photographers. It applies to everybody. Jason, I appreciate your time. Please let me know when you're coming back to Colorado. If you can make it out here in September 2023, I'd love to show you around my neighborhood. You'd have a good time shooting some of the bulls around here. As long as you don't tell all your friends or put it on the show, I'm okay with it.
We're careful about that. We don't put locations on the show.
It's all good. I've already blown it up. I already get a bunch of hate around here for the little things that I say. I appreciate you and what you're doing for conservation and everything. That's a huge part too that's overlooked. These wildlife photographers being ethical, sharing those ethical moments, portraying a little bit of the journey, not so much the image, and maybe an experience that you've had with an animal.
That applies to the hunting world too. There's a big change coming in a lot of that. I see a lot of good people doing stuff like that and sharing their moments and experiences rather than a grip-and-grin photo or a photo of an awesome bull. That sheds a light a little bit more on conservation and why things need to be around, and maybe why people will listen to scientists and biologists more than politicians.
I like how you fit that in. That was good.
Keep holding it in there. Jason, I appreciate you.
Thanks, Bobby.
I'll catch you the next time you're out this way.
Take care.
Important Links
Untamed Images by JL - Instagram
Tourons of Yellowstone - Instagram
Doug Gardner – Past Episode of Wild And Exposed Podcast
Ben Masters – Past Episode of Wild And Exposed Podcast
Marc Montoya – Past Episode of The Mountain Side Podcast