#132 Mike Herne - Free Range American
Mike Herne - Lifelong outdoorsman, writer, veteran, and photographer. Mike is a die-hard bowhunter who strives to be the best. When his military obligations aren't at play, you will find him hunting, fishing, or training to hunt somewhere in the backcountry. As he has progressed through his hunting career, he has developed a true passion for sharing his craft with others. He is a truly engaging teacher and a wide range of people enjoy learning his skills. His true definition of success is to bring the knowledge he has learned to a broad audience and help grow and preserve the sport of hunting.
Tune in as Mike Herne joins Bobby Marshall in the studio to discuss hunting, archery, writing, Colorado, outdoor life, and much more. Please subscribe or like us on social media platforms for updates on shows, events, and episode drops.
www.TheMountainSidePodcast.com
Sponsor Links:
Mountain Side listeners receive 10% off all Jocko Fuel products! Use Code TMS10 to save.
Mountain Side listeners use Exclusive Link to receive specials on select TRX products!
Mountain Side listeners receive 10% off Origin & Jocko Fuel products! Use Code TMS10 to save.
---
Watch the episode here
Listen to the podcast here
Mike Herne - Free Range American
Our guest for this episode is my friend Mike Herne. He is an active duty military member of the United States Army. When Mike is not behind his uniform serving our country, he is an avid outdoorsman, bow hunter, gear enthusiast and a full-time rider for Free Range American. I enjoyed having Mike in the studio. This was a long time coming. I hope you enjoy our conversation.
I'm glad to have you. We are rolling right into this. Long fucking time coming. We have known each other for a couple of years. We have gone back and forth. It is hard to get time with you. You are a busy guy.
I am busy. Colorado is spread out to you. I'm all the way down in the Springs, Evergreens and Way. It is a hike.
I appreciate you making the drive, especially in the fog.
It wasn't bad. We need the rain. Keep it coming.
Make those rocks big. What have you been up to? You are active military.
Not for me. My job, I tell people, “It is a self-licking ice cream cone.” It takes very minimal work to keep the proverbial train on the tracks but the other stuff I have taken on is a little bit rowdy. I’m between writing for Black Rifle Coffee and Born Primitive Outdoors, a clothing company. Aron didn't start it. He helped design the clothing of the Born Primitives and Athletic Apparel Company.
Is it Aron Snyder?
Yes, Aron helped design the outdoor line. They are making technical hunting or outdoor apparel. You can wear it anywhere. It has solid colors. I took on their social media management and did some of their digital marketing, mostly email copy. I'm trying to add tools to my proverbial toolkit for when I retire from the military. I can get a job in the industry when I retire. I'm trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up.
How long have you been in?
Seventeen years in 2023.
Are you looking to get out at the twenty-year mark?
At twenty, I'm done. A few years of hard work. That last year is going to be all retirement medical stuff. It is going to be prepping to exit.
What was your MOS?
I'm an 11 Zulu because I'm an E8.
You are speaking a foreign language. I know what MOS is.
I'm an infantry guy. My MOS is infantry and 11 Bravo. When you become a senior enlisted soldier, it changes the Zulu. I have no idea why. You become a jack-of-all-trades, master of none.
You probably spent some time with a backpack on your shoulders.
I have tons of time with a backpack on my shoulders, which translates well over to hunting. I take that for granted a lot. I will take a guy or gal out on a hunting trip. I take for granted that I have done it my whole career. When I transitioned into backpack hunting, it was an easy transition for me because I have been living out of a backpack in Afghanistan and on training events. When I take someone new out there, I'm like, “You did what? You packed what?”
I was talking to a guy. I went out and shot photos for a gun range that is getting started up and down by me. He was talking about his first elk hunt. They did it a couple of years ago. He was like, “We had 120 pounds in our packs” I'm like, “What the hell did you pack?” He was like, “I brought clothes for every day. I brought this.” They are experienced riflemen and PRS shooters. I'm like, “No, you bring extra underwear and a pair of socks.” That is the stuff I take for granted because I already knew it from the military. The transition was way easier. It makes you think.
Luckily, I had some good influences growing up. Some uncles taught me the right way to do shit like, “No, you don't need this.” I also had to learn throughout the years. I don't go crazy. I'm not as crazy as you and Aron and some of these guys that go out for 11 to 12. I will set up a base camp. I might spend 1 or 2 nights out if I’m in the animals or onto something. If not, I'm going back to the luxuries of camp.
I'm getting a lot less crazy, especially in Colorado because you backpack far in and guys like Aron. It is cool. You backpack 4 miles in. You burn all this energy getting back there and there are already five people back there. I know spots at great elk habitat over-the-counter units that I could backpack into. I'm hesitant to do the work to get back there because I don't want to get back there, find somebody already back there and be like, “I hiked 4 miles.” We are hunting together.
It is going to happen in any over-the-counter unit. It is crazy the amount of people you see. I had it good growing up as a kid here. It was different.
I’m hearing guys that have hunted Colorado their whole lives, like you and Aron, who have hunted it for the last several years. I’m hearing those stories. When I'm going out there, this is all I know. It is trailheads, trucks and license plates from way out of state. I don't blame the people for it but when I am driving around the over-the-counter units that I hunt, I see 1 Colorado license plate for every 10 non-resident license plates.
I use those guys to my advantage. Part of my game is using other hunters to my advantage. I will spend the night up in a draw a bull and hope that they push elk to me in the morning coming out of their base camp. I don't know. I'm not an expert. Every few years, I'm killing elk.
I'm on a bit of a dry streak myself but I have called elk for other people to kill. That is my problem. I keep going out. I love being out there and calling.
I like being out there more than I like killing something, honestly. The mental reset for me is huge.
That is the big draw for me. I take September off without fail. I tell my boss in the military, “I will work for Christmas and holidays. I need September off.” It has got an expiration date on it. You are not going to be able to hike into the mountains every year and chase up. There is going to be a point in time in your life when that is over. When you look at it like that, I'm like, “I will not miss a September even if I'm not the one with the tag in my hand.”
That is why the last few seasons, I spent a lot of time helping other people, which is good and bad because I like calling and interacting with the elk. That is my favorite part of it and the mental reset. When you are out there and you don't have cell service, it is you versus the mountain looking for elk. You are not worried about your cell phone bill or if you sent this email. Your daily problems become small in comparison to food, water, shelter and trying to find a killing elk, which is amazing.
That is the whole reason I go out and fill the freezer. It is the best fuel or meat you can get. Hands down for me. It is more the connection with nature and being out there facing some adversity. It is always good. That is the most adversity I have faced in my life because I got pretty easy being out there in the backcountry, trying to crawl or sneak in on something. It is important to me.
I’m dialing it back here a little bit because I don't want to blaze over that. You are spending that much time in Afghanistan with a backpack. When did you transition that into hunting and knowing, “This is what I'm going to do post-military?” A lot of guys focus on their military careers. They don't think about what they are going to do when they get out. When they get out, they are like, “What do I do now?” A lot of the guys I have talked to have started successful businesses but don't have a plan until they are already out in a couple of years to figure it out.
I hunted my whole life. I grew up hunting but it wasn't a passion. It was what we did. I grew up in Upstate New York. Tree stands for deer. You could only hunt with a shotgun back then or a slug gun because of the population density.
You don't want a bullet traveling over a ridge or through somebody's bedroom.
That is how I grew up. I did it and then sports and girls in high school.
If you are playing football, you are not hunting at all, especially during archery season.
Sports, girls and partying got in the way. I joined the military. There is not much opportunity to hunt. I was stationed in Italy and Fort Bragg, North Carolina. There were some hunting opportunities there. In the deployment schedule back then, you are home for a year and then at war for a year. It is on and off with all the training and stuff in between.
I got assigned to Fort Benning, Georgia as a drill sergeant. No more deploying but it was long hours. Fort Benning had a good hunting program and they had wild pigs. They have a pig problem. You could kill twelve deer during deer season, 10 dough and 2 bucks. They made the base so easy to access for soldiers to hunt. It was stupid not to. I was like, “I'm going to try to get back into this.”
They are almost an invasive species.
The deer or the pigs?
Both.
They want you to kill the dough. The pigs are out of control. I started hunting. I never bow-hunted as a kid. I had a bow and shot it but I was like, “It is way too much time and attention. I'm going to take the slug gun and smoke a deer. When deer season is over, I can get back to partying, girls and sports.” At Benning, I was like, “This extends your season.”
I killed a couple of deer and pigs with a rifle. After going to war and carrying a rifle for a living, it didn't get my blood pumped the same way. I was like, “I'm going to try bow hunting.” It got my ass kicked. It was handed to me. I was like, “This is it. This is freaking awesome.” I went all in on bow hunting and transitioned from Benning. I came out here.
It changed my career to come to Colorado to Fort Carson because, to that point in my career, I had been a paratrooper. I was an airborne infantryman with the 173rd Airborne and the 82nd Airborne Division. Those were my people. That was the community I was in. That was the organization coming to Fort Carson. Not that non-airborne soldiers are worse but they are worse. It is a different mentality when you have a guy that volunteers to jump out of a perfectly good airplane. It is a different breed of soldier. They volunteered to do one additional hard thing. The Special Operations community is next level because they volunteered to do another hard thing.
I chose to come out here solely based on elk hunting. I was like, “I want to elk hunt.” When I heard an elk bugle on a campaign's video, I was like, “That thing sounds like a dinosaur.” I got a massive rock on it. What an amazing animal. I want the opportunity to do that. In my mind, I was like, “It seems seemed unattainable at the time to do it from Georgia. I will get stationed in Colorado for my next trip and try to elk hunt out there.” That is what I did.
Mike Herne: I chose to come out here solely based on elk hunting. I heard an elk bugle on a campaign video or something, and I was like, "Man, that thing sounds like a dinosaur and has a massive rack on it. What an amazing animal. I want the opportunity to do that."
Those elk bugles are addicting. That is why I live right here. You saw the bulls running around the last time you were here.
I saw a bunch of cows on the way in. They are hanging out on the highway.
There is a bunch of babies running around. Sarah was telling me that she saw 30 calves in a neighborhood over here. I was like, “It was a good year.” They can survive the highway.
I saw a car that might have eaten a cow on the way there.
Game and fish already picked up the cow. The car is still there.
I was like, “I wonder if they ate an elk.”
They don't like Mercedes too much. There is a lot of them up here. You see the total up here from it. I hope everybody is all right but airbags are deployed. When you hit one of those things, they are 600-pound animals. A cow is between 400 and 600 pounds. That is a big ass animal there.
I came out here to hunt elk. I have gone through an evolution in this whole thing because now that I'm on the inside of the industry, I get to see how it all works and the inner workings. I'm running an Instagram page for a brand. I get to DMs guys like, “You should sponsor me.”
You got your work cut out for you. I don't think people realize how much work goes into trying to have some hunting show or work in that industry because you are expected to kill animals. It is a lot of work to do that by itself without cameras or any other stuff involved.
That is why we are going to go down a rabbit hole but talking about my dry spell, I need to stop helping people and hunt for myself.
You need to call up some of those guys that want sponsorship and have them come help you.
I got to trust them to call for you. I'm particular about my calling.
It is hard to find a good hunting partner.
I started to mature in the industry because I was the same guy. I had 300 followers on the gram, reaching out to companies like, “You guys should sponsor me. I have an Instagram and I hunt.” I didn't have any idea about how to add value to a brand. The people that are sponsored, getting free products or getting paid by a company are adding value. They are not getting paid because of who they are. They are getting paid because the brand sees value in them.
The people who are sponsored, get free products, or are paid by a company are adding value. They're not getting paid because of who they are. They're getting paid because the brand sees value in them.
A lot of people overlook that. That is why we have had so much success here. Some of the amazing sponsorship we have had throughout this, including Black Rifle and Jocko, has been amazing for us. Origin has been awesome. When you reach out to these companies, you shouldn't reach out to them and be like, “Sponsor me because I need money.” Where I have had success is I tell them what I can do for them or how I can work for them and what I can provide them. If you are a guy running the social aspect of a company, how many people do you have reached out to you that want something but they are not telling you what they can offer?
It happens almost weekly. I was that guy at one point because I didn't know. You don't know what you don't know. A lot of people think, “I hunt and I have Instagram. I should be able to get some free stuff.” I know they don't think like that because I was that guy at one point. I have matured since then. I have been fortunate to make the connections I have and do the things I have done. All of it has been because I have done something that adds value in some way, shape or form.
When I left here, I got stationed at Fort Knox and selected for a job at Fort Knox. I had two choices. It is to go be a ranger instructor at Fort Benning, Georgia, which I didn't want to go back to. I wanted to be a ranger instructor, not at the Benning phase of ranger school because they had to be dicks all the time. It is like being a drill sergeant. I don't care about people like me. I didn't want to be a dickhead all the time. I was past that point in my life.
I was talking to the guy that manages my career. He is the ranger. He is the guy that places us throughout the Army. I called him like, “I'm done with my time here in Colorado. What is next?” He was like, “We got Fort Benning, Georgia to be a ranger instructor.” I was like, “I would love to be a ranger instructor. I want to go to Florida or the mountain phase of the ranger school. I was already a drill sergeant. I don't want to be a dickhead 24/7. I want to be able to teach, coach and mentor but I don't want to be switched on that I got to constantly be yelling at guys in their ass.”
That is got to be mentally grueling.
It is a lot of work. I already did it as a drill sergeant for two years straight.
How was that?
It was fun. It sucked at the time. It is like elk hunting. It is type two fun. You are hiking up a mountain. You are like, “This is miserable. Why I took time off of work and time away from my family to do this? Why did I do this?” When it is over, you are like, “Is September yet? When is September back? I can't believe this is over.” It was a lot like that.
It is awesome mentoring young people. That has got to be the most gratifying part.
You will meet all kinds of people in your military career but everybody remembers their drill sergeant. That is a special thing to have a like kid. It still happens. A kid will come up to me. He will be looking at me funny from across a store. He will come up to me and be like, “Are you drill Sergeant Herne?” I'm like, “Not anymore.” He was like, “You were my drill sergeant.” They will tell me about their career, where they have gone and what they are doing. It is cool to see the full circle.
You'll meet all kinds of people in your military career, but everybody remembers their drill sergeant.
When I was a drill sergeant, I ended up being the senior drill sergeant for the same battalion, company and platoon that I went to basic training in. My career came full circle at that point. The building was even named after a guy I had graduated basic training with. We went to jump school with, went to Italy and deployed with. He got killed overseas. Our company building was named after that guy. I had a little bit of history there because I was in basic training with that guy and I was a drill sergeant there. I was able to tell these soldiers or recruits like, “This building is named after a kid that slept in these bunks and he is gone now. This is real.”
I feel super connected to Colorado. I'm not relating this in any way because of how many generations and history I have here, especially in Evergreen. I could imagine, on that end, knowing somebody firsthand that you lost and going back and being able to mentor young soldiers to get them on the right track and have that name behind you. That is cool.
HRC called the branch manager. He is like, “You can go be a ranger instructor.” I'm like, “Four RTB is not for me. I don't want to be a dickhead 24/7 switched on. We already covered all that. Can I go to one of the other ones?” He was like, “Nothing is available.” I'm like, “Let me think about it. I will call you back.” Before I hung up, he was like, “You got good paper.” My evaluations and records look good.
He was like, “What do you think about working up here?” I'm like, “What is up here?” He was like, “HRC.” I'm like, “What is that? What do you guys do up there? What is your day-to-day like? What is a day in your life?” He was like, “It is 9:00 to 5:00. You are responsible for your job alone. It is the most freedom you will ever have.” It is the best job I have ever had in my military career. I thought about it for about two seconds. I was like, “I want that. Give it to me.” That changed everything.
That is what brought you to Colorado.
That is what took me away from Colorado but it changed my trajectory in life. When I got there, it was the way he described it. I went there for several years in the military. I was a sergeant first class. I’m an E7. I was already promotable to E8 when I went there. It changed the trajectory of my career because it was the first time in all those years that I didn't have to worry about anybody but my job and myself. In any other job I've had, including the one I have, I'm still responsible for soldiers. I'm responsible for caring for them and their training.
It is got to be always in the back of your mind.
You are always putting those people first. You got blinders on. You are like, “What is the mission? How are my people? Am I accomplishing the mission? Missions are getting accomplished. Are my people doing okay? How are my people doing?” That is what my career was. There was never much time to be like, “How is Mike doing? What does Mike want?” It is good and bad. It is good that you don't have a lot of time for idle hands. It is bad because if you spend a career doing it, you hit the twenty-year mark and you are out of the Army, all of a sudden, that huge purpose you have is gone.
A career in the military is good in that you don't have a lot of time for idle hands. It’s also bad because if you spend a career doing it and then you hit the 20-year mark and you're out of the army, now all of a sudden that huge purpose you have is gone.
What blows me away about it is it seems like it stops all in one fall. It swoops. I can relate to this a little bit, not in the same facet as you guys but I used to do rock and roll tours. Some of them were last several years. You would be on the road with the same team. It is a team-oriented thing. You were relying on other people to do their job so you could do yours. You work long hours. You are traveling constantly, whether it is on a tour bus, airplane or private jet. It is fast-paced and fun.
What makes it fun is the people around you. Everybody thinks that if you are backstage, you are doing blow, drinking Jack Daniels and hanging out with hookers but that is not the case. It is pretty much get up, work, take a cat nap in the afternoon, work until 2:00 AM, get up the next day at 8:00 or 6:00 AM whenever the bus stops and do it all over again. Occasionally, you get a day off. It depends on the band you are working with.
I would fall into a depression when I got home and those tours would stop. I was dog-ass tired but I found myself with nothing to do. I was like, “What do I do now?” I was living in Hermosa Beach and was severely depressed coming off it. It would take me a week to get out of that slump and I was okay coasting again. I couldn't imagine going strong for many years and all of a sudden, I turned off. Is that how it is?
I have talked to a bunch of guys that have gotten out and retired already. One of the things they say is, “It is crazy.” They pull their phone out and they are like, “This thing doesn't ring anymore. I'm tied to this thing.” I have a work phone in my truck. It is constantly going off. It is with me. I take it everywhere I go. The military is different. If you are managing a restaurant and one of your employees doesn't show up to work, you are like, “All right.”
It is almost along the lines of an owner. If a pipe breaks in your restaurant, you got to answer the call or figure out a way to fix it.
You are not only responsible for those people. You are responsible for their families. To a point in the military, we were responsible for individual people's life choices. If I get a DWI, my boss is going to be answering for my wife, “Sergeant Herne drove up to Evergreen. He got fucked up with Bobby and got to smoke a cow on the way home.” My boss is going to be answering that. He doesn't know why I got a DWI. It is crazy the level of responsibility you have for the soldiers and their families. It has to be that way because we get some great and not-so-great Americans that slide through the cracks in the military. We are the military.
They are just people. It is like anywhere else and jobs. I have met a ton of people. For the most part, in life, no matter what you are in, 85% of those people are good but there are some shit bags too.
It is a lot of responsibility. If you hit the retirement button, it is all gone. You are like, “Anybody calling me? No one called me in a week. I'm not getting text messages. There are no more group texts.”
It is part of the camaraderie. I'm sure you have people you see more than your family sometimes. That is how road life was. They become a second family to you. All of a sudden, that family is gone because they are off doing their thing and you are out of the group.
The Army song is, “The Army goes rolling along.” That is what it does. When I leave the military, the people calling me for problems are calling the next guy because they have already replaced me. If something happened to me and God forbid it does, they are going to replace me tomorrow or within the week. There will be a replacement in my position. It happened and it is a fact. That is how the military works. That stops for guys. They don't have a plan when they get out.
That time I spent at HRC was the first time in my career. I was like, “I have all this time. I'm responsible for my job. I don't get yelled at if Bobby doesn't do his job. Bobby gets yelled at.” As the leader of Jocko's extreme ownership, if someone in my organization fails to do whatever it is they need to do, I answer for it because I'm the leader of the organization. It is my responsibility to ensure the organization completes its mission. At HRC, I was a talent manager. I managed all the E7 infantrymen in the Army. That is all I had to do. It was strengths and numbers. It was answering phones and giving guys career advice. I didn't have any of my soldiers.
If you’re the leader of the organization, it’s your responsibility to ensure it completes its mission.
Was it hard to take that job, coming from the airborne and being an infantryman?
It wasn't because everybody in that office was better than I was. Everyone is hand selected for that job based on their evaluations and interview process. You are up there with competitive people. The guys you are working with are your peers. You got to see how the Army worked because we were managing it on an enterprise level at that point.
We were hand selected because they wanted you to have the ranger tab, drill sergeant experience, all this experience and good evaluations because you are providing mentorship to the entire force. You are going out and briefing generals and senior enlisted like sergeants major. You are going out there and telling them how to manage their formation from a strength standpoint and talent standpoint. You would teach them how to manage the talent within their organization.
It was cool for me. I thought maybe it would suck. When they sold me like, “This is going to be the best job you ever had and here is why,” I was ready for it because I wanted some time. I needed time to take a breather. That breather was the best thing that ever happened because it was there that I was like, “What does Mike want? I never got to think about what Mike wanted. What does Mike want to do with this life?”
There is more to life than the military because I got to take those blinders off and stop looking at the mission and the people. I didn't have any people so the mission was easy. Sometimes it was mentally taxing but it wasn't a physically strenuous mission. I had time away from both the people and a hardcore mission where I could think about what I wanted. That is when I was like, “I'm passionate about hunting. How do I break into the hunting industry?” There is a bunch of ways. You can start a podcast or talk to your cell phone all the time.
You can start a podcast on your cell phone.
There are all kinds of ways to do it. There are guys that can do it. Guys set up a camera and record themselves like open boxes. They were like, “I got this new knife. Watch me open it.” I don't get that bone in my body. I could do it if Black Rifle Coffee was like, “Can you send us a video of X, Y and Z talking about this product?” I can do it if they do that but I'm not going to go do it on my own. It is not in me.
I have a hard time. The hardest part of this show is doing the host read advertisements for me. That is why I only picked products that I believe in. That is important that you align yourself with some good companies like that. In almost all the companies that you are aligned with, I own their gear and use their gear. It is badass.
I didn't have that in me. I was like, “Let me try writing.” I wrote an article. I sent it to a buddy who is a gun writer. I was like, “Will you look at this? Let me know if it is worth a shit or what.” He was like, “I will do you one better. I will have my wife look at her. She is an editor.” I'm like, “Cool.” I don't hear anything for a couple of months. All of a sudden, she emails me back. She was like, “I'm sorry I didn't get to your article and get your feedback. I read the bottom line. I want to publish it.” I'm like, “Whom do you work for?”
I had no idea. I knew she was an editor. When I met this guy, she was an editor at the newspaper in Georgia. I was like, “What do you mean you want to publish it?” She was like, “We want to pay you.” I'm like, “What? Whom do you work for?” It turns out she was the editor for Coffee or Die at Black Rifle Coffee. I sent that article at the right time and place because Evan, Matt and all those guys were starting to dip their toes into the hunting water. I was like, “If you like that one, I got another one.” I started writing stuff for them. They were not great.
Some of your articles are awesome. I was reading some of them to catch up because I have a hard time reading shit online. I'm a tangible type of person. I was going through some of your articles. I read the one on Glassing. That was awesome. I'm going to go back and check them out. I know about Free Range American. I have seen it before. I had Mike Shea in. We talked about it. I have glanced through some articles. Occasionally, one will pop up in my feed. I'm not much of a reader. I'm more of an audio-book type of dude.
We were talking about you doing some different things. I thought it might be cool for me or how I would like to take one in. You are also a photographer. You provide a lot of photos for your articles, which is important. It is like photojournalism. I have a passion for photography. You are good at it. The articles fit well with the photos.
That is important to me because there is nothing worse than reading some article and you can tell somebody put a photo up that has no idea what they are talking about or showing. That happens occasionally in some of these outdoor publications. You are like, “The guy is handling a trout wrong.” We could go down a bunch of rabbit holes on that but that is cool.
I'm a huge fan of Audible and audiobooks. I thought it would be super cool to take in an article that way through an audiobook platform or something like a magazine, have it read by the writer and maybe have some photos that pop up along the way. An interactive magazine would be awesome. I would pay money for something like that, especially if it was something in my wheelhouse like Bugle Magazine. That is what I love about Bugle.
I'm fortunate. I have been published there a couple of times as a photographer. That is the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation’s Magazine but they send you one every month. You can flip through it. I love that tangible thing. I would take in a digital magazine if it were or if you could have it plain in the background to listen to his driving while working out. My biggest problem with sitting down to read is I don't find the time to do it. I'm either sleeping or active. That is how I am.
I have seen a few digital publications. I don't know if it is Wall Street Journal. It is like some of the bigger publications like NPR or the Wall Street Journal. You can hit play on their articles. It is like a robot narrating it.
My favorite audiobooks on Audible are the authors reading them. Some authors elaborate a little bit more. I love Steven Pressfield. I don't know if you have read any of his stuff. In his audiobooks, you almost get a bonus outside of the book because he will elaborate a little bit like, “This is what I was thinking when I wrote this.” He will go on these little tangents to make you go, “Get the audiobook. I need something like that.” An interactive magazine would be super dope but I don't want to read the Wall Street Journal. I didn't give a fuck about any of that.
When there is something going on in the world and I see an article, I'm like, “There is a play button.” I play with my truck. I can listen to it while I'm driving. The convenience of that is a good idea.
We got something new for you, Mike.
I don’t know if they want me to narrate. I will be screwing up words and dropping F-bombs. I’m trying to sound it out, Tahir Syed. I have a funny story about getting into photography. Aron Snyder, I have been friends with him for a while but I looked up to him long before we were ever friends. He is the man as far as backpack hunting and all that stuff goes. I have known about Kifaru since before Aron was at Kifaru. It was natural that once he got into Kifaru, I was like, “Shit.” I have looked up to him forever.
Before I started writing, he was getting into photography. I'm like, “Photography is gay. I'm not doing that. That is some woo-woo shit.” I started writing and I'm like, “I don't feel like I'm a good writer but if I have good photos to go with my articles, they can fix my words.” An editor can change your words. In my earlier stuff, you can still see what a poor writer I was and I'm much better now. You can sell shitty words if you have good photos.
You can sell shitty words if you have good photos.
Especially in the magazine industry, those cover photos are important. When you pick it up, sometimes it makes me stop at an article to read it where I might have grazed through it.
That is how I got into photography. That is a fun fact.
What do you shoot on?
Sony A7 IV. What about you?
I'm still on some old Nikon because it is more of a hobby for me now that I pick up the show. I sell a little bit of fine art or maybe a piece a month. I'm not killing it. I should pursue it a little bit more because I have a passion for it. I go out and shoot elk around here, which is awesome because it is the best environment to go photograph elk in.
Some of those have been published in Bugle and Bugle loves it. I hate to say this out loud but they will write an article about elk migration but little do you know that elk was shot right here in Evergreen in the lake but you don't see a house or a power line behind it. I was being conscious of that. Where else are you going to get that close to photograph elk? I have done Yellowstone trips and up into Madison to shoot wolves. I see more animals at home in my driveway than I have seen up there.
Why go to Yellowstone if you can get your back door?
There are many great spots around here. We have some badass photographers that we have had on the show, like Jason Loftus. Do you know him? It is Untamed Images.
I don't know. I will have to check them out.
I'm sure you have seen some of his photos. He photographed that bull out of Rocky Mountain National Park, Brutus, that they found dead a few seasons ago. He is an iconic bull. Shout out to Jason. He is an awesome dude. He lived in Utah, Salt Lake. He is always around that area but he takes the most incredible photos. He has been a mentor to me in some of his photography. He is incredible. He is the real deal, in my opinion. You dedicate so much time to it.
You got to find the animals and the right light. You can try to shoot some elk pictures tonight but they are not going to look good. You would be sitting at dinner up here and see when the sun is breaking through because the storm is passing. It is real orange color. I have seen it three times. I want to be somewhere where I can shoot photos but every time I see it, I'm at my house in Colorado Springs. It is going to be an hour to get anywhere where there is anything worth photographing in that.
You got to anticipate the moment or spend hundreds of nights out there. I don't think people realize how much goes into it. Anybody thinks, “I will pick up a camera and shoot wildlife.”
Do you know what camera he is shooting on?
He is shooting on Sony A7 IV. I haven't made the jump. I have some old DSLRs and Nikons. I still shoot on those. I have taken some awesome photos of those.
Aron Snyder switched to Canon. The colors at Canon are fine.
I take that back because we have had Jason on the show. He is shooting on Canon, maybe. I could be wrong. I don't know.
This is something I'm learning. I know how to use a Sony. I'm stuck with Sony because I don't have time to learn. I don't want to learn the menu on a Canon or Nikon. I'm good with a Sony. It is what I have time to put time into learning.
The actual function or concept of photography stays the same, like aperture settings. I don't know how you shoot.
I shoot on manual.
I used to shoot manual and I don't anymore. I shoot in aperture mode because I have missed many great shots. It is all timing, anticipating animals and animal behavior. It has honestly helped me in hunting. Hunting has helped me in photography. It goes both ways. I anticipate where a bull is going to cross a river. I have as much fun doing that as going out and bow hunting. People think I'm crazy. All the guys up at American Bowman, I always tell them, “I love coming up here more than I love hunting. I love going to that range and shooting.” I try to go twice a week.
If we had planned better, we could have done a range day.
Let's do it again. We will have you back. Let's go to your range day and get up there. I haven't been up there this season. Did you go to Best of the Best?
I didn't go to Best of the Best. I did the WesternHuntFest in New Mexico. They had the one at American Bowman but I was in Big Sky for the Total Archery Challenge. I saw Mr. Jocko up there.
We haven't met him in person. We have gone back and forth a little bit on messaging but it is such an awesome company. They have been good to us. I hit him up like, “I got an idea. This is what I want to do. This is what it might cost. This is what you might get out of it.” They have been supportive.
Jocko is great.
I have nothing but good things to say about him. I love his pro-wrestler vibe.
He is and isn't. On the internet, he got that persona. He is a little bit more laid back in person. I was teaching at this woman's bow-hunting retreat.
That was one of the things I wanted to talk to you about.
I taught at one in January 2023. Jocko came up. They were setting up a boost. He is good friends with the lady that puts that whole thing on my friend Christina Cook. He came up for it and I came out. They all went out and shot the course, all the other instructors. I was teaching tag education. I came out from teaching tag education. Everybody is gone shooting bows and having fun. You guys left me here working, which is fine. I loved it but Jocko was like, “Where is everybody? I want to shoot my bow” I'm like, “They left me too.” Jocko and I went and shot the course together. It was a lot of fun. He is a good dude.
Can he shoot?
He can shoot.
One of my favorite things that we did with Jocko Fuel is they did that Bronco giveaway. His advertisements were great. I love his advertisements for all the Jocko Fuel stuff. It is hilarious. I always get a good chuckle out of it. They have been awesome for us. We went down photography and you are writing for Free Range American.
It started as Coffee or Die. I was the OG outdoor writer with no mentorship and nobody reigning me in. I write about stuff or they would send me stuff to write about. When Black Rifle Coffee started to grow, they hired pros. That is where Mike Shea came in. He was an editor at large at Field & Stream. He is a Columbia-educated writer.
We had him on the show. He is an awesome guy and a fun guy to hang out with.
When he came in, I was like, “Fuck.” I submitted an article to him. He was like, “No, we are not doing that shit anymore. I'm going to teach you how to write.” He did, to an extent, as much as he could teach me. I still focus on taking good pictures and them wanting my bad words and fixing them but I try to make him not have to fix as much of my words.
I did that with them. I formed a relationship with Aron as a result of writing. I did a story on him. Aron and I had talked. We had met before. He took me on a hunting trip. Once we were in the backcountry together, he was like, “This kid is the real deal. He is not some nerd on Instagram. He can hack it. He can call elk. His is gears down in backcountry.”
You find out who somebody is back there. Podcasting is a great way to have a conversation but there is no better way to see people lose their shit in the middle of a backcountry or not or keep it together or help you. Do you have to help them?
People's true colors come out when they are faced with adversity and discomfort. Army Ranger School's whole premise of the course is a leadership course. They starve you, sleep deprive you and make you do hard shit. They make you lead people that are starved and sleep-deprived. Your whole grade is based on getting a bunch of people that are as miserable as you to do the same thing. If someone is a shitty person, it comes out. They are stealing food from other guys or sleeping. That fucks the other guy over.
Do you know what is crazy? I don't know if I'm going to get in trouble for this but the shittiest people I encountered when I was in ranger school were chaplains and the Army preachers. It was only two of them. One chaplain stole a kid's cold-weather gear for himself. I'm like, “You are the chaplain. How are you stealing this cold-weather gear from this poor guy?
Does the whole team turn on him? Are they out at that point?
We do fear evaluations at the end of every phase. We feared the chaplains. Both the chaplains got feared out of the course. They ask you questions, would you go to war with this guy? Strengths and weaknesses. You rated everybody on your team.
I hate to say it but isn't that the norm? We see a lot of crooked ass people at that preacher's altar sometimes. I'm sure that there are a lot of good ones out there too. It is like anything. Those are the stories that come out.
I don't think I have publicly told that story. The other one was stealing people's food and shit. I was like, “You are a chaplain. I don’t steal food from other people. You are supposed to be Christ-like.”
Back when I was doing rock and roll, there was a little lapse between some tours. I would freelance for some companies. They hired me to do this gig in Dallas. I was like, “I need a paycheck this week.” I went down. It was a TV evangelist thing. I had no idea until we went in. We built this huge production. It is a $1 million show with a proper stage and big lights in American Airlines Arena. I walked off the job. I was disgusted at what was going on. It was crazy.
Trash cans were being passed around the arena and people were throwing envelopes in it. Meanwhile, the person up there giving the sermon, I don't even know who these people were, were like, “God needs you to give me your retirement. He will return it to you in favors.” I was like, “I'm out of here.” I called them. I was like, “You are going to have to find a replacement because I'm not in. I'm not even going to put my name on the show.”
Have you seen that HBO series, The Righteous Gemstones?
No.
It got Danny McBride of Eastbound and Down. It is Danny McBride, Walton Goggins, who is one of my favorite actors and John Goodman. It is about this megachurch TV and evangelists. It is all a joke on that. The millions of dollars these guys are making and Danny McBride is the son. He is blowing lines of coke off hookers' asses, preaching at church and collecting money.
I saw him leaving laughing, coming out off the stage. Meanwhile, there are Brink's trucks pulling up and they are throwing these envelopes like trash bags full of money into the back of their Brink’s trucks.
That money ain't going to Jesus. He doesn't need it. You find out who people are in the mountain.
Aron goes hard in the paint.
I was nervous going out with him for the first time because I was like, “I'm half your size but we will see how it goes. I kept up. I felt good. I hunted with him the year after that. We went in when South Cox shot that bull in zero feet.
I don't know the story. What happened?
Go to YouTube and type in Stalker Stickbows’s Five Foot Bull. See if you can find the shot sequence. This would be a few years ago. The first year I hunted with Aron, we were in a different unit. He went into this unit. It is a good unit. He shot a bull from here to the door over there with the signatures on and away with a stick bow because he's the owner of Stalkers Stickbow.
That is how you got to do it with a stick bow.
The next year, Aron and I went in. I went in to call for Aron and South went in. They both got the same tag. Aron was across the draw and South came out. I was calling a bull up on this hillside. He was bugling from his bed. I kept him bugling. Snyder could try to sneak up and kill him in his bed. It didn't end up working out. As I was doing that, I started hearing branches break behind me. Aron is over there and there is a bull coming in behind me.
Out of the woods, pop South Cox. I'm like, “What’s up? What happened? Where were you? What happened? Why are you alone?” He had a camera guy and a caller. I'm like, “What's going on?” He was like, “I did it again.” I'm like, “What again?” He was like, “I killed a bull this far away.” Look up Stalker Stickbow’s Five-Foot Bull. That is the first one. You can see how close he is to both of those bulls. That is two years in a row in the same area.
That is dangerously close. All that bull has to do is put his antlers down and rake. You are in the penetration zone.
We took llamas as a burst.
Were you with him on this hunt?
Not this one. The second one, I was. Watch this and we will watch the second one because it is outrageously close. This gets me pumped up watching it. Do you know how hard it is to aim?
I have had elk come in that close that I have drawn on. You can't aim and see because you are looking through your peep. That is where you are at an advantage with traditional archery at one point if they are that close.
This bull almost ran over the camera guy. Two years in a row, he has done this. I saw him right after he made that shot.
I'm going to have to go back and watch this whole thing. Did you film this?
No, I was calling for Aron. I was supposed to film for him. I asked Aron, “Do you want me to call or film because I can't do both effectively?” He was like, “Fuck that camera.” That is why I love Snyder. That is it right there.
You were calling these bulls in.
I wasn't. South had his caller. I was a caller and I was with Aaron. A guy named Levi Mayfield, a buddy of mine did this video. Levi is good for handheld. This place we were in, I won't talk about it on the show but it is so unreal the way these out. I have never heard this much bugling.
That is how Colorado used to be.
I have never seen or done anything like this.
They are nice bulls.
He almost ran over the caller. The caller is right down there. He turned before he ran over South’s caller. This day, South came down. I flagged where he dropped his backpack. Aron came back. He didn't get on that bull. Aron and I went another 1/2 mile further up the drainage. We are about 4 miles from camp. Camp is about 7 or 8 miles from the trailhead. Aron and I killed a bull up there the same day. We had two bulls down. Aron's bull was 14 miles back. South was about 12 to 13 miles.
We were in deep. We got back to camp that night. Aron and I cut that bull up. He was like, “What do you want to do? Let's hang the meat up here. We will get the llamas to come back in the morning.” I regret saying this. I was like, “Why don't we de-boned it? Let's split it between the two of us. It's downhill back to camp. Let's see how far we can get it.”
It is the only way to do it when you are that far back. Cameron Hanes put a full quarter on your back and get crazy.
As soon as I put that backpack on, I was like, “I made the wrong choice. I wish I wouldn't have said anything.” We are walking and I'm falling behind Aron because he is stepping over logs and I'm belly-rolling over these things. I got to get up with this freaking massive pack on my back. Finally, 1 mile in, Aron turned around and was like, “You can call me a pussy Mike. I'm done. We are hanging the meat.” I'm like, “I have been waiting for you to say that since I put this backpack on. We only went 1 mile.” I ate my words every step of saying, “We should try to see how far we could get.” It was a wild season in there. That is an unreal place.
I'm sure you know Tom Clum. He is an awesome guy. I have known him for a long time and his family. They have been around Colorado forever. I started bow hunting at an early age before the show was around. Tom is so cool. I went into him when I got back to Colorado. I was talking to him. I was like, “I was thinking about hunting traditionally.”
I didn't realize how hard it was or how much time I had to spend behind the riser because I was getting back into archery. It was funny because we started talking. He was like, “I have so many guys that come in and tell me about their 60-yard shots. I don't want to hear those stories. I want to hear the stories about the guy that shoots 1 at 10 yards.” A lot of people have that misconception. If you can sneak into 10 yards or 5 feet on a bull elk, that is crazy.
There is a little bit of luck with the calling and put yourself in the right spot. I don't have that luck or the amount of time to dedicate. I'm shooting a wheel bow every time.
You need to get one of those guys to go out and call for you.
I applied for 49. I got six points and I didn't draw.
That is another thing. You think about some of these guys. Some of these guys that draw these ram tags are almost too old to go. They are like, “I can't go now. I have been putting in for this for many years.”
Do you know who Cody Covey is?
I know the name. He is a Kifaru guy. You should have him on. Is he still live in Denver?
He lives in Parker. He doesn't work for Kifaru. He is a construction. He does projects. He is a bigger guy in the construction world. I don't know what his title is but he manages big projects. He is a hunting machine. He is not well-known because he doesn't put himself out there. He does it for the love of the game.
I love talking to you guys but I feel the same way. I'm only out there for me. I'm not trying to be a professional hunter. I get so much hate on this show because they were like, “You don't know what you are talking about.” You should read some. I will send you some of these emails. First off, I'm not trying to be anybody but it is funny. It is the little bit that I mentioned or talked about.
You get the hate mail and the haters. They are everywhere.
Haters are everywhere. They're talking sh*t because they're not doing anything.
It makes me laugh when my freezer is full.
They are not killing shit and posting shitty cellphone videos.
Maybe they are pros that are hitting me up. They get pissed off that I have pros in to talk to you. If Cam shares something about like, “Listen to these guys,” that is when we get and I'm like, “Here we go. Thanks, Cam.” It goes both ways. It is good and bad.
You got to take the good with the bad.
Honestly, I don't care. It is water off a duck's back at this. I don't even pay attention to it anymore.
There is no point. They are talking shit because they are not doing something. If you are spending time talking shit about Bobby's show, you should find something productive.
That is what I think about. I feel bad for these people because I'm like, “The amount of time they spent to bastardize me or send me a 3-page email, it would take me 1 week to write that.”
Talk to kids about how to throw a baseball, write a hunting article, learn how to shoot and take one good picture with a camera. Learn how to take a good picture with your iPhone.
Thanks for reading. I appreciate that. You can also turn me off. To go that extra mile, I'm like, “Are these people going to find me in the parking lot?” It almost is a little bit of psycho involved in it. When you read some of this shit, it is crazy. I don't even want to go down that rabbit hole.
Sorry, Cody, this son of a bitch. I got a text from him. He was like, “I drew Maroon Bell's sheep tag.” I'm like, “I'm stoked for you. This is badass. I'm dropping whatever I have at the beginning of my season.” Already the first part of elk season, no hunt. It is all hands on deck. The homies got a sheep tag. I'm flying to California to teach this second woman's bow hunting retreat. I get a text from him. He was like, “Drew a moose tag.”
I called him immediately. I'm like, “I'm having a hard time being how happy for you. I want to be happy for you because I'm your friend but, at the same time, two times in a row, it is empty and you drew too badly.” He got a badass moose tag coming up for him. He is lucky. He would be a good guy to have on after the season because he is going to have a hell of a season.
I love to talk to him.
He is good. He is one of the best hunters I know. He is a killer.
Is he on Instagram? I think I follow him already. I may have already talked to him. Cody, I'm sorry. The show has been insane. I have talked to so many people. I'm bad about keeping up with it. I have some people here to help me with that. That helps a little bit. You have spent a ton of time with Aron.
We have hunted together. We have taught two classes and camps together. That article you read, I wrote that after the first camp.
Let’s talk about that a little bit because there is no real training out there. I thought that it was cool that you guys were putting on a camp. There are not many people who make YouTube videos about that. It is one of the sharpest tools in my arsenal when it comes to bow hunting.
People are starting to catch on. You got the outdoor class. There are guys that do seminars. You can only take away from listening. This could be a seminar for a guy. You could pick my brain about calling elk but there is only so much you can take away from a podcast.
You can only take so much away from listening. There's only so much you can take away from a podcast versus being boots on the ground.
It is being boots on the ground.
It is boots on the ground, experience and being able to do it with a coach or a teacher and have them grade you. They look at how you are doing it and tell you what you are doing wrong. I have run sniper teams in the Army. I have done all kinds of stuff. Being behind glass is something I'm comfortable with. Coming from a sniper and reconnaissance background in the Army, we constantly train to keep our eyes sharp on the glass. We do targeted detection and exercise.
I took the way we teach people how to do it in the Army. Aron and I took that and combined it with his vast knowledge of doing it in real life for animals. We came up with a format that worked. It is crawl, walk and run. In every phase of the way, we are evaluating the students. We have performance measures that these guys have to meet.
We are looking at their grade sheets or score sheets. We are bringing them back in after we have seen how they have done because now we know where they are strong and weak. We are zeroing in on individuals' weak points, building them up and making them stronger. By the time you leave one of these courses, they are good.
I want to come take one of them.
The next big event we are doing is going to be in April 2023. It is going to be a land navigation course.
That is one of the most valuable things you could have in the backcountry, whether you are a hunter or not. Everybody is reliant on phones and GPS. What if that thing fails? There is some importance to having a map of wherever you are going in your backpack and being able to read a compass, shoot an azimuth or have some navigation skills.
Even if it is reading terrain and being able to be like, “I'm looking at a map. I'm here because that is that mountain.” It is being able to read topo lines and terrain association.
Topo maps are useful, especially if you know how to read them. I use the shit out of my mind, whether digital, National Geographic maps or any of those elk hunting maps are awesome. The land feature is big. That is what I was taught as a kid. When you are hiking, stop and turn around once you make a ridge or every couple hundred yards. This is what it is going to look like when you are coming back. Those imprints are huge. That is how I was taught.
We have all the technology. They are like, “I don't have to learn.” Technology will fail. The battery is only going to last not so long. It is going to get wet and lost. Technology will fail you at some point. It might not be in the five seasons but eventually, something is going to go, “It can't go wrong. It will go wrong.” Murphy will rear his ugly head. If you don't have certain skills, you are fucked. It is always good to be able to do some of that analog stuff or non-digital map compass. The way we are teaching these courses is not groundbreaking. The military has been doing it for years, crawl, walk and run. You are evaluated every step of the way. There is a culminating event at the end.
How does that translate in glassing? The crawl is the start of where you glass.
For the crawl, we take the students. I set up what we do for snipers. It is called a targeted detection exercise. If we don't have the terrain in the space, you got to find a human out on that ridge line. If we only have the hillside out back, I will put a bunch of objects out there that are not commonly found there. You need a hill in your backyard. I will put a bunch of objects out there.
In the Army, we bore snakes for cleaning rifles. We would wrap those around branches, matchbox cars, bullet brass and cleaning rods. You got your gun line. You set your snipers out. They draw their sector sketch. They sketch the area of their glass. That teaches them to work on gridding and how to effectively use their optics, eyeballs and how to grid. You do a precursor scan of the area with your eyeballs, looking for areas where things might be because we are human. We hide shit.
It is the same thing with animals. You get to a glassing point. You are like, “There are shade and water over there. This is wide open. I can see there are no animals in it. I don't need to stare at that for five hours. I need to glance over there and see if a buck or a bull has walked out. I need to pick apart that dark timber over there.” It is the same concept. Scan with your eyes and use your lower power binos to do another scan. “I can't find anything. I need to settle in and start gridding.” You start gridding with your binos. “I see something but I can't identify it.” Throw the spotter up.
You are saying you start with a sketch. Are you marking the grids off?
It is a target detection score sheet. It is already graded for you. It is 1 through 10 and A through F. You draw your sketch on that grid.
Graph paper would be ideal to do this.
You mark what you are finding and where you are finding it. That way, you can go back to it and find it. Hunters can do it with their phones. You get to a glassing point and take a picture. How many times have you glassed an animal up, looked over to bullshit with your hunting buddy and bumped your scope? You know where that spot is but you can't find it.
You mark it on your phone and take a picture of the area. I do it after I shoot an animal. I do the same thing because my adrenaline is pumping. I'm like, “The animal is right there. I snap a photo.” Like the military, we drew sector sketches because we got to sketch the terrain. We got to be able to paint the picture for the commander, whether it is on the radio or physically showing them where stuff is. It works well for glassing. If you are glassing for a long period, you got shit else to do.
You are hunting in a different way. I want to come take one of those. It is valuable. Can we talk about these women's classes you are doing? You do a field dressing class. I have seen some posts about that. That is important because I don't think there is anything more important than field dressing if you get an animal down, especially if you are in September. You don't want that thing to spoil. Plus, it is against a lot of waste.
We had a game and fishing here multiple times. The most common thing they run into is people don't know how to take care of the meat or they leave it behind. They don't realize how big a bull elk is and how far they might be. They might be 17 miles back in. There are no plans and they never done it before. You are working against the clock at that point, especially if there is heat. Flies are huge. If you don't have proper game bags to properly take care of the meat, you are fucked.
You can watch a YouTube video 30 times. Once you get that animal on the ground and you are amped up, you are not going to remember everything from that YouTube video.
This is one thing that frustrates me about some of the mainstream influencers out there. A lot of them are hunting on private land. I have no qualms with that. If you can afford to do it, I would be doing the same thing. They catch a ton of heat for that. It must be a nice quote, that whole thing. One thing I noticed they do that could help some people is if they showed the butchering process of how to bone out something properly and take care of the meat.
All you see is some of these hunters out killing bull after bull during the season. They are putting full quarters or a quarter in a head in the cape on their backpack. How far are they going? Are they going side-by-side? That is 150 yards. A lot of people have that misconception, “I'm going to quarter it and pack it out.”
Some of the bigger guys create a little bit for new people that don't know. New people that are new to it are still wide-eyed and they are not wise about what it feels like to pack an elk out. They create a false sense of reality. Name a big-name hunter like Cam and Jocko. They have earned everything they got. They have earned the right and they can afford to hunt these places. The new hunter watching them was like, “He is doing that. I could do that too.” It is a different ball game.
Mike Herne: The bigger guys create a little bit of a false sense of reality for people who don't know or are new to it. They're still wide-eyed, and they're not wise to what it feels like to pack an elk out.
It is different when you are 7 miles deep and it is 85 degrees in the middle of September.
The new hunter doesn't know any better. They think that it is some crazy backcountry hunter. They are like, “That is elk hunting. That is going to be my experience.” They got out there and were like, “I haven't even hurt an elk yet.” When they finally get one down, they throw four quarters on their back and they are like, “I didn't run one marathon.”
That is the thing too. Those guys are in supreme shape.
Cam is 50-something and he is still crashing it. He is not human.
You are talking about somebody that runs 230-mile ultra marathons. The whole net fell altitude. There is that element. Not that there should be a disclaimer. They also shouldn't be responsible for all the dumb ass that walks into the wood. A lot of the people reading this blog are new to the outdoors. Whether they are going for a hike, ask for general information.
I ask a lot of stupid questions on here when we have a game and fish. We have done full episodes on how to handle a trout. Why those field dressing classes are so important is to take care of the meat. Starting with a small animal like a goat and understanding the anatomy of an animal like of a sheep, translates to elk and deer. It is all the same.
What is badass about those classes is when Kris Cook got this project. She has her ranch out there and she raises these animals. She is a hunter but not an experienced hunter. Her husband Mike, a good friend of mine, is a great American. He was at CB in the Navy, which is their engineer. He works with the SEAL teams. He has been a hunter his whole life. Kris has gotten exposed to it. She has taken an interest in it. She was like, “I like this if there is not a steep barrier to entry for women.” This is intimidating to get into as a woman.
She is trying to knock down those walls. She is trying to create a community. She is killing it. These events are so much fun to see how much fun the ladies are having and how much they are learning and to see them all connect and start to make plans to put this stuff into practice. The field dressing is our icebreaker. We start in shock and awe. I smoke a couple of goats in Kris's barn with a little 22. On day one, first thing, everyone is shaking like, “This is who we are. We are going to dump the guts out of these goats.” We kill two. We show them gutless methods.
You will decide quickly whether you are in or out. Some people can't handle it.
We show them the gutless method. I field dress one. Kris does her field dressing classes throughout the year that people come to. For the big retreats, we always do two animals. We do them on the ground. I don't want to hang them. I want it to be on the ground so they can see how to remove the hide to properly take care of the meat and try to keep it clean. The other thing is you can make mistakes. This is a safe place to make mistakes. It is where I'm talking to them about being careful femoral artery and different blades like scalpel blades.
It is the most dangerous part of hunting.
I got scars all over my fingers from cutting myself. It still happens. These aren't the last ones I'm going to get. I get excited and the next thing I know, I need stitches in my finger because I'm using a sharp knife.
Not to mention if you are tired, you are running against time, you have had a huge adrenaline dump and it is dark. All those things come into effect.
It is good because it is a place where they can make mistakes and ask questions versus the first time you want to break down an animal and take care of the meat and you don't have anybody to ask questions or you fuck up. You are out there. It is a good place to do it. We cook the goats and feed them to them at the end. It is good.
I like the fact that you are doing it on the ground because there is some adversity that you face there. You will find out quickly that you are back hurt from being bent over for a certain amount of time. I went through something like that to test myself on a bison. I had never been a bison. We did it all with stone tools. Field dressing in elk, I'm never going to complain about it. Seven hours with stone tools was the next level.
I was fortunate I got invited to that. Shout-out to Donny Dust for inviting me. It was an experiment through CU Boulder. It was a primitive experiment with at laterals and the whole nine. It was next level. It makes me want to do it again. I tested myself. It is one thing to have a nice blade in your hand with a nice handle that is super sharp. The minute you pick up one of these pieces of stone, you are like, “It is sharp on all sides.”
They were much sharper. Donny made me all these. We didn't use any of these arrowheads. I did not use this one but this was pristine. This is obsidian. I started with this piece right here because I was like, “This feels good in my hand. I can get into the bison with this easily.” Have you ever felt like dressing a bison? This was my first time dressing bison. If you think about an elk hide, it is thick. This is the next level. It is like a wooly mammoth almost. It is not but could you imagine what a wooly mammoth was?
I put this in my hand and I started with it. It was great for about the first five minutes until I started cutting my hand because you got to use so much pressure. I was like, “Donny, do you have a piece of buckskin lying around?” He was like, “I do.” I found myself automatically making a handle. I got into it and what I found was they had a bunch of these flakes that they broke off. This would be great if you were throwing it on a spear because it is aerodynamic. It is sharp on all sides and serrated. You are going to get more penetration.
I found myself using flakes that were broken off. It is sharp on all sides. There is a little bit of a handle. When you are fighting through hair and hide, the serration clogs up. It was cool. I'm fortunate and I got a freezer full of bison meat. I have been eating backstrap every night. Shout out to Donny for inviting me. I can't wait to do it again. If I ever get the opportunity, I'm never going to say no. I’m going to drop whatever I'm doing.
There is a lot to it. I had all that experience like cutting up elk and deer. I get that every year but I'm doing it with my knife and I will complain about that like, “I got to hurry and get this done.” This was the next level for me to test myself. I can remember the first elk that I had to field dress and being miserable. I was happy when it was done but I was like, “This is a big animal. There is a lot to it.” If I get something down and I have been through this process multiple times, it is still daunting. You still get an hour in and you are like, “I got so much to do.”
It is Type-2 fun. If you got an elk down, you are like, “This is the best part. This is where the work starts.” An hour into it, you are like, “I forgot.” You know but still, you forget about the bad until you are in it.
What I didn't realize about the bison is it was much bigger. My hands were locking up from cramping because the hide was big and rolling a stick in the hide to try to pull it back to cut the fascia and cut to skin it. That was a chore in itself. You are doing it with stone tools. I purposely didn't pick up a blade for that reason. I was like, “I'm going to do the whole thing.” Thank God Donny was there and a couple of other people cut on the thing because it would've been a 12-hour, not 7.
That is an undertaking. That is cool.
Donny is somebody you should interview and talk to.
Did you have him on the show? Is he The Survivalist Guy?
Yes, he has been on four times. We did a fifth episode. He is a former Marine. He is an awesome guy. He is a veteran. He doesn't tell that but he teaches napping and primitive survival. He has been on Alone. He had several other TV shows. I think it is Paleo Track Survival.
I think I know of him. I have seen him.
He would be a great interviewee. He is the salt of the earth. He is a good human being. What I was getting back to is if Donny wasn't there during this bison deal and me trying to do it with stone tools on my own, I would have been SOL because he was like, “No, try one of these flakes.” I’m having a little bit of mentorship in anything. Don't be afraid to ask. It is hard to break into this industry. It is still intimidating for me to walk into a bow shop where I don't know anybody because people automatically start judging me.
It is like going to a gym. I'm 5’5”. Every time I walk in the gym, I'm like, “All these big little hangings in here are looking at me.” They don't give a shit. They will tell me what their lifts are. They want you to win most of the time. You still got that preconceived notion like walking into a new bow shop. That is a good analogy.
Don't be afraid to ask questions. If you own a bow shop, be nice to people. I have seen some assholes in bow shops before. I'm not going to name any but be inviting. They are your customers. Don't treat them like they are a dumbass. It is okay to ask stupid questions and answer stupid questions.
It is intimidating, especially for ladies. It is a tougher industry to break into. There are some ladies doing well. Some of them are doing well because they are badass. Some of them are doing well because they show A and T on the internet. The stuff that Kris is doing with the ranch is next level. This last one was cool because we took four Navy Special Warfare, their gold star wives. Their former husbands had passed away in service.
Christiansen Arms came through big for us. They made custom rifles. They put their husband’s initials on them. They went through all the training with us. We are going to take them hunting in Georgia. They are going to go on their first deer hunt. It was a bow-hunting retreat. We are going to take them on a rifle hunt because it is a natural progression. I like to take a new hunter out, not a rifle hunt, first because bow hunting is time-consuming.
The success rate is a lot better.
I like new hunters to start with a win. I want to light that fire. If you take them out and smash their dick in the dirt and they don't have fun and find success, they might not come back. Getting them started with a win is a better way to start the fire. There are some people that love it, like you and me. We are gluttons for punishment but there are some people that need that initial fire lit before you start to punish them.
More now than ever, there are so many women influencers out there and we have had some of them on like Dayna Monroe. She is awesome.
She helps us with that. She is involved with it.
We had Shyanne Orvis in from the fly fishing industry. It is intimidating. I know what I'm doing on the archery side because I've shot archery since I was a kid. I had some good mentors. I'm confident in my archery skills when I walk into a bow shop or go to American Bowman. Not that I'm never walking into a situation where I'm intimidated. I would be intimidated to have Aron Snyder sit across from me and talk hunting with him.
I'm intimidated to talk to you about hunting. I'm not a pro hunter. That is not what I'm portraying. With the amount of knowledge I get from it, I'm not afraid to ask questions. Also, walking into a fly shop is more intimidating to me because, as much as I love to fly fish, some of these guides are insane. The whole study of bugs is the whole thing.
I love fly fishing. There is a fly shop in our hometown. I got a bunch of my guys. We got a work day off and I took them fly fishing. The fly fishing community is different. They are a little bit more snooty and uppity.
It is a different level of class almost. You are stepping into a country club in some aspects. Some of those guys are the guys I laugh at when I see them in Bear Creek and I'm in board shorts and a Quicksilver hat.
That is why we get along. We are wet, waiting with a fanny pack and catching one fish after another. They are in full waders with their little glasses on.
That is one thing I want people not to get jaded by. I love Kifaru packs. I own one. It is the best pack I have ever had. Not everybody can afford that. You don't have to get out there. I had family members that used to kill deer in red flannel shirts. You can still do that. You don't have to have the Sitka gear. If you have the means, get that shit. It makes a difference but you don't have to have that to get into the outdoors. You don't have to have the top-of-the-line bow.
Matthews is a great example of that. I love their bows. They fit me. It is to each his own. When it comes to a bow, it is set up for you but they get it. Hoyt does the same thing. Any PSE and other companies out there, you can go and buy a bow that still works with the same mechanics made by the same company but might have a different name. It's an entry-level bow or a cost effect. Mission is a great bow for the money.
For people trying to get into archery, I never like PSE, Stinger or Brute Axe like that $400 bow. It is always the bow. Even if you have the means and you can afford it but you have never shot a bow before, you don't know what a good bow feels like. You don't know what you like in a bow. You don't know if you love archery or bow hunting. Why would you spend $1,100 on a bow? It is not like a rifle. They depreciate because they come out with a new model every year. The value of those things drops.
It is like buying a computer. A traditional bow, on the other hand, is a different story. It is like a collector's item.
Buy an entry-level bow, get your feet under you and figure out how to be a good archer with that bow because every single boat on the market now, unless you are buying some wazoo bow from Amazon is coming from who knows what country.
Get your feet under you, shoot, and just figure out archery. Figure out how to be a good archer with that bow because every single bow that is on the market right now, unless you got it from Amazon, is more than capable.
Please don’t buy one of those. It might blow up.
As long as you are buying one of the big ones, PSE, Elite, Bear, Matthews or Hoyt, if it is got one of those names and you are buying their entry-level bow, it is more than capable.
Go to an archery shop and get some help. Don't buy something on Amazon. As much as I'm a fan of Cabela's and some of these big brands, they don't always have the most knowledgeable people. It is the mom-and-pops like Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear, No Limits or any of those guys.
I get asked probably at least once a month, “I want to get into archery. Where do I start?” I'm like, “Find a good pro shop. Not Shields, Bass Pros or Cabela’s.” If they are down in the Springs, I send them to Bill Pellegrino's. If they are up here, I send them to RMS or No Limits. That is where you need to start. That is why being nice to people at a pro shop is important. I’m like, “I'm sending you guys into this pro shop. You guys better treat them right.”
That is why pro shops are much better because they have their community there. Every pro shop got its crew. They got the Mallrats back in the day. When you are in high school and you hang out at the mall, they got these guys that come into the pro shop and hang out there all day. They don't work there. I don't know why they are not at work or what they do for a living. They can sit at the pro shop and bullshit with the bow techs.
Take what works for you. I still go into bow shops. I will have guys critique me. Sometimes it is good. Sometimes it is not good advice. You will find yourself on the range with somebody telling you how to shoot no matter where you go.
Finding a good pro shop and being a good pro shop for the pro shop owners that are out there is critical to keeping people in the sport. It is critical to keep their doors open. If I didn't want the pro shop experience, I would go to Bass Pro or Cabela's. They want to sell you something and get you out the door. Pro shop, you got to take the time, teach them and answer what might be a dumb question because you have been shooting a bow for many years.
There are many different ways to shoot a bow. Right down to the release, how many different releases are there? There are hundreds. You could get into arrows, fletches and broadheads.
It gets complicated quickly.
You can spend a ton of money and not be set up for how you like to shoot a bow.
Entry level and a pro shop are two things.
Some of these good pro shops will let you shoot a bow without buying one. They were like, “Figure this out and we will go from there.” Maybe it is not the bow you are going to buy but they will have a base model or something similar.
Unless you are dead set on buying like, “I want this Hoyt.” If you are a new archer, a lot of times, they won't try to sell you the flagship bow. They are going to be like, “There is a mid-level bow. This bow is going to be able to outshoot your skill for the next five years. Get this bow.” That is how you and I started.
I didn't grow up with a dad but I had uncles and grandfathers. They all were archery hunters back in the ‘80s. On my first compound, I shot with my fingers and it was a PSE. They bought it for me. I was fortunate to have those mentors but I couldn't imagine going into it without all that knowledge.
It is a lot like teaching that bow hunting retreat. The questions these women asked brought me back to when I was first getting into archery. There is still stuff that I'm learning. I'm a decent shot. I got a pile of animals under my belt. I don't work on my bow. I'm starting to get the tools to do it but I don't have the time to dedicate to learning how to do it.
There is an art behind it.
Witchcraft is what it is.
In a good pro shop like that, some of the guys that work at Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear and No Limits are setting up multiple bows a day. That is all they do for eight hours a day. There’s all that experience and time or maybe a cam is a little bit out of sync with another cam. All those little nuances are huge. It is a studied art. Have you talked to Caleb Brewer from Stick Sniper down in Arizona?
No, my good buddy helped him kill a ram.
He is an awesome guy. We had him on the show. You should connect with him and do something with him.
My buddy speaks highly of him. He helped him with that. Did you see that ram he killed?
I did. He killed a nice bull in 2023 in Arizona. It was a once-in-a-lifetime tag. He got down there. You guys should connect. I would be happy to make the connection if you don't already have it. He has some affiliation with Black Rifle. He has been on some of the adaptive shoots they have done to help the guys. You have helped with some of that stuff too.
I haven't helped with Black Rifles. I don't have the time to be on active duty.
How important is archery to you and mentoring some of these people? What do you think people get out of that, whether it is hunting or not?
I’m going through this big personal growth thing in life. I quit drinking alcohol. I kicked the booze. I have been doing a lot of mindfulness exercises and self-reflection. I’m looking into my future and getting in touch with Mike, which is weird.
No, it is not.
It is but it is weird to be 35 years old and getting to know myself. I'm like, “I'm 35. I have been myself this whole time but I haven't known who I am and what I want.” The biggest thing for me for these events I have been doing is the community, connections and human experience like meeting people, sharing knowledge with people, seeing the proverbial light bulb moment when you are teaching and seeing people get motivated about it and want more. They are there.
Meeting people and sharing knowledge with them creates that proverbial light bulb moment when you're teaching them and seeing them get motivated about it and want more.
These ladies show up to these events and most of them are strangers. By the end, they are exchanging numbers. They are like, “Let's plan. Let's try to do this.” They are going to do it. We taught all this stuff. They hung out for the week. They got all this knowledge. They are making plans to put it into practice. I always try to take maybe not a new hunter.
My buddy Kyle is a ranger in the 75th ranger regiment. We worked together at HRC. He is a great human and man. He is a good soldier and a great dad. He is a good dude. Elk hunting has been on his bucket list. He lives a fast-paced life. He was supposed to elk hunt with me a few years ago. He sent me a picture. He was on an airplane. He was flying over to respond to the whole Afghanistan debacle when we were pulling out.” He was like, “I got on the wrong plane.” I'm like, “That sucks. I hope you are safe.”
He came and hunted with me in 2023. I’m watching him get to experience his first bugle with a bow in his hand and a tag in his pocket. We didn't even see the bull but seeing the elation on his face, I'm like, “This is why I do this.” I love helping people and seeing good people win. I like to see you with the show, Aron with Kifaru and Derek with his hunting show. I want to see good people and my friends do well.
I feel the same way. There are a lot of people that don't.
In this personal growth thing, I went through a little bit of that. We all have an ego and jealousy like, “Why does this guy have this and I don't? Who is this guy? He must be nice.” It is weird. I’m maturing and growing up. At 35, I'm still learning valuable life lessons.
I'm still learning too. I had one of those moments when Cam came out with this show. I felt like everything I had done for the last few years crushed me for a minute because the production was good. I was like, “Why aren't I doing it like this? That is good.” I turned around and shared it on our page. I was like, “I'm going to help him out.”
Not that my little audience is helping him. He has helped us way more than we have ever helped him by sharing the show, reading, turning around and sharing it. I'm grateful for all that but there was a tad bit moment there where I had to dial myself back. It was for a split second. That is automatically what pops into your head. It is a motor skill.
It is ego. Since I have worked on it, my ego is done far more harm to me than good and since I have been mindful about keeping my ego in check, being humble and trying to do good, whether it be doing the right thing or being a good person. You said, “I'm going to share Cam’s thing.” Cam is promoting the shit out of your show, talking about it or listening to it.
Be mindful about keeping your ego in check. Be humble and just try to do good.
They say the best way to give a gift is to expect nothing in return. That is why I don't share my hunting stories or post them on Instagram. I'm selfish. It is a moment for me. I don't want to have to deal with any of that shit. I didn't want to have to deal with taking photos, sharing them and getting the public hate and critiqued. I'm doing this for me. It has nothing to do with trying to gain my platform or make my platform bigger.
I will talk about it here because the only reason why I work out is to stay in shape for hunting season. It is my driving force. It is the only reason why I do all the shit all year long and take the entire month of September office because I want a bow hunt elk or I get out there as much as I can. That is what hunting is to me.
I feel like nature is almost giving me a gift. I expect nothing in return. I don't want to build a platform off of that. That is my own. I don't knock anybody that does. It gives you way more opportunities. My friend, Donny, was able to do primitive experiments with CU Boulder. That is because of his platform. I'm fortunate that I got invited on.
Even when you do shit with no expected return, you are doing it because you want to be a good person and support or see somebody win. I have started doing that and not giving a fuck about clout or what is Mike getting out of it like, “What's in it for me?” When I shifted my focus to doing good things because it was the right thing to do, good shit started coming my way. It is ridiculous. Opportunities started happening and doors started opening.
A lot of it has been in 2022 because it is when I shifted my mindset from, “How am I going to make it? What is in it for me?,” to, “How can I help Kifaru?” Not like, “Can Kifaru give me a free backpack and a free this and take me hunting?” It was like, “How can I help Kifaru? How can I take better photos of them? How can I help move the needle for that brand?” I’m not worried about what's in it for me.
I picked up a rifle company as a sponsor because I went out and shot a video. They have an event called the Bogari Experience. I went out and shot a video because their videographer couldn't come out. I can't edit worth of shit but I can shoot. I shot and their normal videographer did all the editing. It is formulated naturally. I got along with the whole team. They liked me and my photos. They started following me on Instagram. They are like, “He is out there living a cool life. He is in the field. He is the real deal. We like to work with him in some capacity.”
It is genuine at that point. You are genuinely doing it to help somebody or something you believe in. That is super important. I even got caught up with that with this show for a little bit. We first started and came out of the gate. Luckily, I have some friends and connections from the entertainment industry and have known some people in town from hanging out in bow shops and the mall rats. They came on the show. Shout out to Mark Montoya. He is friends with Cam. He shared it with Cam. This is the fourth episode.
It turned into a snowball. I was like, “What did I sign up for?” I felt like I had to outdo myself with guests on the next episode. It turned into like, “What guests should I have on to make the thing grow or keep these people interested?” I don't even know where it happened. I was super stressed out. It became not fun for a minute. It was weird.
I got a platform. I was like, “I got to keep this going because I want to do this so bad.” I got caught up in it. At one point, I was like, “Fuck it.” It is selfish. Anybody I have in here I genuinely want to talk to. I could care if there is 1 person reading or 1,000. I'm grateful for everybody that we have. I don't want to sound selfish about that but it rekindled that for me. You are spot on with that. Do it on a regular basis. It is okay to dial it back.
Eventually, shit will pick up. Speed will get fast. I’m like, “I'm doing the same shit. It is time to reorient.”
I used to be worried about like, “I got to put an episode out every week.” Now, I'm like, “If it works out, it works out. Shit comes up in people's lives. People are busy.” You and I have been going back and forth for several years. I used to get frustrated at that but people were busy. If I'm busy, I can only imagine how busy you, Aron or some of these guys like Cam.
Be grateful and don't expect anything in return. Those are my three rules with this. That applies to every aspect of life, like being a father. I dial it back and be like, “What am I teaching these kids? What do I want them to know? Is it a good example that I'm tired, I don't want to go out and throw the football?” No, it is not. “Get up off your ass and find that dog.” That is enough of me preaching on here. I feel like sometimes I get a little preachy but I'm sharing personal experiences.
I don't like talking on my phone. I got a good buddy, Cody Alford. He is on the next level. I met him in woo-woo shit right here, at a point in my life where I'm starting this self-discovery and learning about myself.
I wanted to talk to you a little bit about him.
He came out to that women's retreat and we immediately connected. He was like, “How are you? Who are you? What are you doing?” I have seen him from the outside looking in. I'm like, “Is this dude for real?” I met him with skepticism. As soon as I met him, we started talking. He is not talking about himself. He asks me about myself like, “What are you doing?” He is asking about my experience and what I'm doing. He was like, “That is badass. You are making it happen. You are building and learning skills. You are getting out of your comfort zone and building the life you want. You are trying to build a career you want, all while balancing being full-time active duty in the Army. You are my people.” We started bullshitting.
Get out of your comfort zone. Build the life and career you want.
I couldn't agree more with you. That is why you are sitting here.
I appreciate it but meeting him and talking to him is the real deal.
I love to have him on. He is exploding for a good reason.
He is hard to nail down. He is all over the place. He spent some time in Texas in this brain clinic doing crazy stuff. We talked for an hour about it. He is trying to reel back a little bit and focus on himself.
What a great message that I have caught from him.
When you see that on the internet, you are like, “Is this dude for real? Is he living that way?” He is living it. He is making it happen and putting in the work. He is constantly staying uncomfortable. I don't even remember why I started talking about Cody.
We were talking about genuinely helping people with nothing.
I was at this point in life where I was starting to figure out, “Do good things.”
Be a good person. That should be rule number one.
I have always been a good person but I haven't always had, I don't want to say bad intentions but there is a point in time where I’m like, “What is in it for me? I do this for you. What am I getting back?” Since I have started erasing that and trying to do good, I'm at this point where I'm realizing this stuff. I meet him at this event. We bro out for three days.
He is a next-level human with the way he looks at life, his motto and the way he carries himself. He validated a lot of that stuff. He said to me, “You are doing it. That is why we connected. It is because of that.” There is no real reason to cross paths with that guy or form a relationship with him. It happened immediately.
It is funny how life happens like that sometimes. It comes at some crazy moments. We have had it happen in here sitting at this table. It is like taking those first steps because you sit there and question yourself, “Could I sit down and talk to this guy?” When Black Rifle sent me a two-star general from the 160, I was like, “How am I going to sit across from the table?” I have no military experience. I have been around it a bunch. Luckily with rock and roll, a lot of those guys go into personal protection. I have a ton of friends that are former operators or veterans.
In some of the companies I have worked for, I did the 60th anniversary of the Air Force. I got to go to every Air Force base in America while it was still active. I met so many cool and awesome people to hang out with. I had many awesome experiences doing that. I had a little bit to talk about but you are talking to a two-star general. I’m like, “What am I doing here?” At the end of the day, everybody is just people. They will sit down and talk to you. If you genuinely want to talk to somebody, talk to them. I’m taking those first steps and not being afraid. I could have called and canceled with them. I thought about it. I was like, “What did I get myself into?
That was what I was talking about with the show and getting caught up. You start getting people in like that. I’m like, “Who am I going to have to fill their shoes for the next episode?” We talked about on Osama Bin Laden raid, Blackhawk down and all this crazy shit that has happened that is in Hollywood. That was real life.
I remembered where I was going with Cody. Cody was like, “You got to put yourself out there more and tell a little bit of your story.” I was like, “Yes.” You are uncomfortable. That is why you are not doing it. I was driving to Big Sky and I talked on my phone. I talked to Instagram and talked about my struggle with alcohol. I got a little personal on there. Cody was like, “You need to share your story because it could help somebody else.” It doesn't matter who you have in here and what story you tell. Someone might be able to take something away from me. I might be able to help them.
I did that on my Instagram story, which was uncomfortable as fuck for me. I hate and dislike it unless Black Rifle wants me to do something. If they want me to do something and I'm tasked to do it, I'm like, “I can man up, get in front of the camera and do it.”Doing it for me feels narcissistic. I'm not comfortable there but I did it. I would consider him a buddy but he is not a close homie. I have met him once in my life. He texts me. He was like, “I need some advice.” This was a couple of days later. I was like, “What you got?”
I called him. When someone texts me and says they need advice, it is better to do it over a phone call. When they say, “I need advice,” my first response is to call and be like, “What's up? What's going on? What is happening? Where are you now?” He was like, “I want to quit drinking. How do you quit drinking?” It is all from that Instagram story. He's thinking about changing his life for the better. I’m not saying everybody who drinks is bad but if you are going down a self-destructive path like I was going down, I wasn't ruining my life with it but I was starting to burn some bridges. I was on my way there.
For sharing that one Instagram story, somebody else is like, “Mike did it. I could do it. Let me call him and see if I want to do that. I want to stop drinking.” I was like, “The proof is in the pudding.” The only reason I did it is because of hanging out with Cody for those days. He was like, “You need to start putting yourself out there a little more and sharing your story because it could help somebody.” I'm like, “I'm going to test your theory, Cody.”
You need to start putting yourself out there a little more and sharing your story, because it could help somebody.
I have had the same experience through the show. I've had several people reach out to me from out of left field. We have done some episodes of suicide. I will never share any of those stories on here unless somebody genuinely wants to but it is stepping into that vulnerability zone. I have gotten more out of that than them because it has helped me self-reflect on myself. It goes both ways. I’m a big proponent of that.
Mike, we are coming up on time. I want to be respectful of your time. You got to take a long drive back. I appreciate you coming out. It has been awesome. I feel like we are just getting into the conversation. We got to do this again. You are welcome anytime. My philosophy here is to build a community, have recurring guests and have them come back.
If it is once a year or once every two years, you have time for it and if there is ever a free moment in your schedule and you want to come up here, hit me up. I have enjoyed having you. If you got a few minutes before we jump off, let's talk about what you are doing and what you have coming up. I don't know much about Born Primitive. That is something you are heavily involved with. It looks like some badass gear.
It is good. We are kicking ass. I'm happy with everything we are making. We are fine-tuning some things and getting ready to launch some new products. What do you want to know?
Tell me about the brand because I don't own any of it. Is it strictly active gear or hunting gear?
There is Born Primitive and Born Primitive Outdoor. Born Primitive is the flagship company. Bear Handlon was a Navy officer. He created a pair of lifting shorts that went big. They were like compression shorts for Olympic lifting. They went full send with it. He ended up exiting the Navy because the business grew. He is killing it.
He linked up with Aron through some mutual friends in the community. Aron and he went to work to design the Outdoor line because Aron makes phenomenal clothing. It is the best in the business but they are corporate. They don't have the flexibility. They are not a small company anymore. They are owned by Gore Industries. It takes time for them to bring stuff to market even though they got textiles on lock.
There is clothing that Aron wanted for hunting that he couldn't get in any fast time. He could tell that story better than me. He partnered with Bear and started coming out with the Outdoor line. The Outdoor line launched in September 2022. It is not the ideal launch date because it is already the middle of elk season. Since then, we have been building on it. I got my foot in the door with him.
I called Aron. I'm like, “Who is managing your social media?” I'm trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up.” He was like, “I am and I'm not doing good.” I'm like, “Why don't you hire me to do that?” That turned into email and marketing copy. I'm learning about marketing. We got Sloane Brown. He is the Community Manager. Sloane was the Yeti Community Marketing Manager. He is smart as fuck. I'm working hand-in-hand with Sloane. I'm on a call with Bear and all these high-performing people that have built businesses.
I'm in that circle. I'm learning from all these people, which is amazing for me. I don't know what I want to be when I grow up but I know I want to do something in the hunting industry. I'm getting to move the needle for the brand a little bit. I'm finding out that I have experience. I bring things to the table. I might not be a numbers guy or know how business works but I know how to sell hunting clothing. I might not know how to edit the video but I know what video or story needs to be told about a brand or something along those lines and new product launches.
That is why Aron had so much success. You are talking about a guy that lives in the backcountry more than he sleeps in his bed.
He stayed true to it. He is going to backpack and hunt elk on public land in 2023. There are not a lot of awesome guys at his level that are still doing public land hunts. Whether or not he got a landowner tag and it is a good unit, he is still doing it.
Anything he puts his name on, he truly believes in. That is what I love about Kifaru and what he has done with Kifaru. They were a great company, to begin with, before he was there. He made it that much better. It streamlined some stuff and made some adjustments. I can only imagine that the clothing line is going to do well.
The clothing is doing well. The big thing we are doing is trying to keep it simple. We are not trying to come out with a bunch of SKUs or different products. We are trying to build a solid layering system, lightweight pants, heavyweight pants, lightweight base layer, heavyweight base layer, grid fleece for your intermediate layer and some puffy outlay.
We are working on developing rain gear, which is going to be badass once it gets to market. Also, a few outlay-type jackets, windproof. It is a bow hunter-style jacket that is quiet. It has a little bit of a barrier material that blocks wind but it is not noisy. We are working on building all that stuff out but we are staying away from camo. It is all pure solids. The reason for that is unless you have a bunch of money, which I don't.
I have been fortunate over the years to make connections with guys like John Barklow at Sitka. He hooks me up with products every now and again. I don't have the money to buy a $200 pair of pants. I want to but I don't have the money to buy a $200 pair of pants I can only wear in September because I'm not a casual camo guy. You are not going to catch me wearing camo pants and walking around to grab a cup of coffee down here in Evergreen.
Don't do it. I came out of here bow hunting one night because I'm fortunate enough to hunt since my family has hunted for a long time here. It is right down the road. My wife hit me up after coming out of the woods one night. She was like, “Can you go pick up a gallon of milk?” I went up to the local grocery store and got blasted. I’m walking in there with full camo and face paint. They were like, “You ought to be ashamed of yourself.” I'm in the wrong city.
I'm not a casual camo guy. You can wear this stuff hiking and not look like a weirdo or a nerd because the casual camo guys are nerds. If you can only afford camo pants and you are wearing them because of that, you better wear a t-shirt that says, “I could only afford to buy these pants. That is why I'm wearing camouflage. Otherwise, I'm judging you. You are a nerd.”
There are so many prints out there in many companies.
Hunting solids and simple but high-quality clothing is what we are going for. We are killing it. I'm doing that with them. I'm still writing for Black Rifle. I'm sorry, Mike. I'm under the gun on some articles but my schedule is blown up in 2023.
You still have a full-time job.
I was not home one weekend. The beginning of the month was in San Diego. I’m teaching at that women's retreat. For the next one, I took a buddy of mine. He is heading to California. I got diagnosed with a crazy brain called Moyamoya, where the arteries feed blood to his brain. They are shrinking. 1 in 100,000 have this disease. It is insane. He is about to retire from the military. I have done some volunteer work with veteran nonprofits.
They were putting on an access deer hunt. I was like, “I have done a lot of work for you. I don't ask for shit from you. I'm asking for shit now. This guy is coming on this hunting trip.” I got to see him. We gave him a Bergara rifle. We brought three vets to this badass ranch in Texas. It is like Pablo Escobar's mansion. This is a mansion on top of a mountain in the most pristine West Texas. It is beautiful but three vets out there gave him rifles and we took them out to kill axis. It was awesome.
It was a good experience for him. It was his first animal. He has been hunting for four years and hasn't killed anything. I didn't know that he had never killed anything. I was like, “Is that the first thing you have shot besides people in Afghanistan?” He was like, “Yes, It is. I have been hunting for four years. I haven't killed shit. I suck. It is way better at hunting people.”
They might be easier to hunt but they shoot back. That is the problem.
We are easier to hunt. We are complacent, habitual and lazy. Those animals want to live. They are hunted by everything. They got predators around every corner, including us. He got to do that and the next week was Big Sky. I was supposed to help Cody scout for Bighorn. I canceled on him and stayed home to get some housework. He is a lucky son of a gun but it has not been stopped. I'm heading up to Tack.
Is that at Sunlight?
I don't have a reason to go other than I'm going to go up and help sell backpacks for Kifaru. Earl at Cutter Stabilizer will be up there with his booth. Have you seen those Go Fast Campers?
I haven't.
Shameless plug for those guys. That is the coolest product I have seen released.
Is it the little popups trailer?
It is a truck topper. You have all the benefits of having a truck topper but you have a rooftop tent on top. It is American-made. They make it up in Belgrade. It is the most well-thought-out thing ever. You can buy a topper for your truck and put a rooftop tent on top but you got to put the racks on. This thing is all one piece. I can get into my tent from my truck bed. The floor is modular. It is well thought out. Those guys are super cool but they are going to be up there. I'm going to go up there and help them out. I go to Utah Tech to work for Born Primitive the weekend after. I'm doing a helicopter hunt in Texas with Winston Cigarettes and Outdoor Sportsman's group. That whole deal works.
Do you get to smoke while you are shooting it?
I have to smoke on camera a couple of times. That is part of the stipulation. They got to get some shots like with product or beauty shots of me ripping darts. I was degenerate in a past life. I can do it to fly around in a helicopter and shoot pigs with an AR. That is what I'm spending my free time doing. I came home from that Montana attack. I got home at midnight, went to sleep, got up in the morning, shaved my face, put on a uniform and went to work. I'm not getting much downtime.
I appreciate you spending a little bit with us. I was cracking up when you sent me the video message. You are like, “I don't have time to text. I'm driving now.” You were in full uniform. My reply was, “If it is convenient, come on up but if not, no big deal.”
I finally made it up here. This has been awesome.
I'm stoked to have you. I have been wanting to have you on for a long time. You are welcome back anytime. There is so much more I want to talk to you about Alaska but we will save it for the next one.
Let's do it. We will do it again.
Thanks, Mike.
Thank you.
Thanks, everybody, for reading.
Important Links
Mike Herne – LinkedIn
Mike Shea – Past Episode
Jason Loftus – Past Episode
Untamed Images - Instagram
Stalker Stickbows’s Five Foot Bull - YouTube
Fifth Episode – Past Episode
Dayna Monroe – Past Episode
Shyanne Orvis – Past Episode
Caleb Brewer – Past Episode