#135 Tom Clum Sr. - Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear
Tom Clum Sr. - Avid traditional bowhunter with over 40 years of experience in the field with a recurve bow in his hands. His passion for hunting and unquenchable thirst for knowledge regarding proper archery mechanics led him down a path to attain his Level 4 NTS Coaching Certification at the Olympic Training Center in Chula Vista, CA. Tom is also the owner and operator of Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear, a destination traditional archery shop known for its culture, in house coaching, and extremely large new and used traditional bow inventory. It is here where Tom Clum Sr. cut his teeth on coaching. Through 15 years of one-on-one and clinic-style coaching at RMSGear, Tom has built a very unique and powerful coaching style that is transformative to the beginner and elite level archer alike. Tune in as Tom Clum Sr. joins Bobby Marshall in studio and discuss, archery, bow hunting, strength and conditioning, sportsmanship, training, Colorado, Alaska, Australia, New Zealand, outdoor life, family and much more. Please subscribe or like us on social media platforms for updates on shows, events, and episode drops.
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#135 Tom Clum Sr. - Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear
Our returning guest for this episode is Tom Clum Sr. He is one of my favorite people to sit down with. I always enjoy our interactions in or out of the show studio. He's an incredible archery coach. Tom and the Clum family have built an amazing business through Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear, Cutthroat Broadheads, Solid Archery Mechanics, coaching, and traditional archery. Tom has an unbelievable amount of experience in the backcountry but above all that, he's one of my favorite humans to be around. He's a great influence and I always enjoy his company. This was a great episode. I encourage you to read this in its entirety.
Tom, you helped me start this show. You were one of the first people that I was nervous to reach out to. I didn't know what I was doing. Your original episode was Episode 13. That's been a few years since. I got to publicly apologize to you because I was a horrible host. I don't know how many times I interrupted you when you were in the middle of a story.
I don't remember anything like that. You're too good a dude.
I had a great time. I've known you a lot longer than I've had the show. I've been coming to your shop for a lot of years. Also, my family members come to your shop. It’s the wealth of knowledge that you've ingrained in me, not only from the archery standpoint but how to be an outstanding role model, a good person. It's an honor to have you back here. I've been hounding the crap out of you to get you back.
It’s an honor to be here. Thank you.
I appreciate you making the trip. I don't even know where to begin because I have so many things I want to talk to you about. I guess the first thing is you've been in this community for a long time, born and raised in Colorado. I've known you for a lot of years. Your family is amazing, which speaks to you, instilling hunting and all these different things. What keeps you going in all this, having that positive attitude, and being a good role model? You have been to me too.
I got into the outdoor lifestyle and I knew I wanted to be a bow hunter since I was a kid. The old Fred Bear movies motivated me. I got out of college and went into an archery shop. I want a bear super Kodiak. I went and got into bow hunting. I had a buddy that wanted to do it. He was my best friend growing up. He's a backpacking family. He said, “Let's get the backpacks on and we'll go.”
That outdoor lifestyle had been started before with fishing mostly and some deer hunting with a half-brother. Bow hunting captured my interest because it was a style of honey that's so immersed in everything to do with the outdoors, the animals, and the environment we're in. Honey with a rifle wasn't like that, if you saw the animal, you got it. Killing the animal wasn't a big thing to me.
It's like a lot of shock factor in it or something.
It's great. You provide pure protein to your family with it. There's nothing wrong with it and the animals have to be managed. Bow hunting became a lifestyle for me. I knew it was a healthy and righteous thing to do with my time as opposed to other options. You can spend some money on some stupid things but bow hunting. It's kept me healthy all these years. I'm in pretty good shape for this age. If I weren't for this lifestyle, I went to a 50th high school reunion. It was so sad because I was looking at guys who had careers of sedentary jobs and it wreaked havoc on their bodies.
There were three of us that looked like we could move well, which was a surreal experience to think of 50 years because we visited the school the day before. It brought back day-old memories or 50-year-old memories that seem like a day old. I'm driving to this picnic and I'm like, “You got to be kidding me. Fifty years? How did this happen?”
“How fast did that go by?”
That was weird. The outdoor lifestyle was something I knew that I wanted my family involved in with me. I wanted to build good hunting partners for my son and daughter. She didn't choose it that much but she likes everything around it. She helps us butcher game and wrap the meat. She's part of it. I had a wife that loved the outdoors. We were backpacking hunting together, fishing, and doing all that stuff then had kids
Did you start bow hunting before you had kids?
I started to do bow hunting when I got out of college, got a job, saved a little money, went into the archery range, and bought a bow. I knew that's what I wanted to do. I had a best buddy that wanted to bow hunt also. We did. That first year we kicked around in the backcountry for twenty days off of backpacks. We never saw an elk. We didn't know a thing about how to do it. There wasn't the internet then.
There are so many great influences now.
The information is unbelievable. Google Earth, are you kidding me? After that first year, we started reading, whether it be magazine articles or the library, and finding out about the animal themselves, where they live, summer and winter ranges, and how they moved in the terrain. That second year, we scared a lot of elk because we could find them. This is all part of the learning process.
To become a good hunter, there are many skillsets that have to converge. You got to learn that woodsmanship of how to take care of yourself off of a backpack for a number of days in a row, be safe, and have some comfort. You have to learn about navigating this backcountry where back in the day we had topo maps. We had to learn to use those to see where we were and how we got in and out of these places.
There's learning about the animals' habits. We learned about the habits and where to find them but we didn't have the next skillset, which was getting right in the bedroom with them and getting close. As a bow hunter, you have to be close. It’s the skillset of getting sneaky about it. Every minute you're hunting, you're keeping track of the wind because that's their main defense. They smell you from hundreds of yards away if the wind's blowing at them.
There's this whole skillset of shooting a bow. What arrow and setups to use for lethality? We don't want to cause suffering to these animals that we're going to eventually use for food. A lot of skillsets converge and there are a lot of mistakes to be made. I don't know the whole immersion into that. I wouldn't trade it for anything. There was such a mystery to everything we did. It's like, “How do we do this?” Honestly, now, I know all about that. I have this knowledge base that's far extended. I don't have that mystery anymore. I miss it a little bit.
There's this whole skill set of shooting a bow well and knowing what arrows and setups to use for lethality. We don't want to cause suffering to the animals that we're going to eventually use for food and that kind of stuff.
That's how I am with the show. The reason why I started my show is because I was a fan and I thought, “This is great to have these conversations.” I'm getting something out of it as a listener.
You've got such a good personality. You're made to do this. If anybody out there doesn't know Bobby personally, he's the most engaging person. He's got a smile on his face most all the time. When you greet him, you're going to see a smile. He is one of the most engaging, flat-out nice people I've ever met, which makes this a lot more fun.
That means a lot coming from you. You've been a great influence from the beginning. Is it River Summit Group who did the video on you and your family?
It's a guy named Keith Brauneis. That’s the name of his video company. He spends most of his time being a fly fishing guide as opposed to being a photographer or video editor. He was a guy that we met as a customer in the shop and was getting into traditional archery and had a recurve. We taught him how to shoot, get to know him like we do everybody, and build a friendship there.
One day he came to us and said, “I'd like to do a traditional bow-hunting film. I'm a photographer and video editor. I'd like to make a film about the lifestyle of traditional bow hunting. I'd like to follow you guys around as your hunts.” Our first reaction was, “No, I'm sorry. We tend to be a little introverted and tend to be people who don't like to be the center of attention,” which lends to it. We didn't want to pervert what we do by making a commercialized version of it. We didn't want to give up our secret honey holes either to have somebody see where we hunt.
I feel the same way about hunting. That's me and my time. I'm not trying to be a professional hunter like some of these guys out. I'm not knocking that. These guys get to go on some incredible trips and do some incredible things. It's stuff that I don't have the desire to do. I am a Colorado elk hunter and that's what I grew up doing.
That passion has never gone away. I don't know why. Every time I hear an elk bugle in the backcountry, the hair stands up on the back of my neck and I get excited. There's no feeling like that for me. Where I was getting with since I started this show, it's ruined me listening to podcasts and enjoying them as a fan because I listen a lot more intently like, “What would I say here?” I'm critiquing, even though I don't want to.
A good conversation is still a good conversation. I still listen to other people’s podcasts like Aron Snyder. He is great. There are a lot of great ones out there. Rogan is incredible. I don't want that to happen to me with hunting. I don't want to get jaded with it. I've never been one for the gripping grin photos or anything like that. If I do take them, it's only shared with my very closest friends or family members or something like that. They are my moments.
I like to have those photos and share them with my close people. We've had to do more of showing what we do. We have a business related to hunting and archery hunting.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that too. It's about how you portray it.
You want to walk a fine line. I don't want to ever get into self-promotion but you have a business that you want people to know about.
You're not of knowledge. How much do you share? You are an open book and will take anybody that wants to learn.
That's what's comfortable for us and the whole team we have built down there at Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear. We're all people immersed in the lifestyle and educated ourselves in coaching, proper form, and all the things to do with archery. We're all the type of people that love to share what we love. If I get somebody into the sport and they enjoy it, I'm doing them a favor like I was given that favor. It's sharing the love in a way but it's enjoyable. You see these young guys come in like, “I was that guy that walked in the shop. I don't even know what to ask.” Guys tell me, “I don't even know what to ask.”
Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear: The whole team we have built at Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear is made up of people immersed in the lifestyle. We're all people who have educated ourselves in coaching, proper form, and all the things to do with archery. And we're all the type of people who love to share what we love.
I’m like, “Don't worry. I got the answers before you ask them. Let's start talking.” You spend some time with these folks teaching them how to shoot, talking about hunting and tactics, and then you build these friendships, which is the huge blessing of what I do. I've got friendships all over the country from people I've taught to shoot a bow or engaged in my business with in some way. For me, relationships are about the best thing in life and great people enhance your life. It’s been a huge benefit in what I do.
That's why you and I are friends. The first time that I sat down with you, I was like, “Tom is such a good human.” The amount of knowledge that you dumped on me or openly shared.
That's enjoyable. None of us were born in this world with much knowledge. There are some places where you feel like people are looking down on your nose or judging you. You’re like, “They had to learn too.” It's fun to share this knowledge.
There are a lot of egos in hunting sometimes and that tends to get in the way of I don't think anybody's better than anybody else in anything.
It can cast a good or bad.
Are you a good person?
Shitty person.
What is it?
If you're skilled, I like to teach that when I'm shooting. Guys get so upset because they're not getting it or they shoot poorly one day. If I'm a coach and I'm teaching a competitive archer or anybody, I’ll be like, “Give yourself a break. This is a skillset. We all suck when we start.” Automatic functions happen to longtime archers and they get this target panic stuff.
There are reasons for this that are automatic to the brain. We get these automatic functions to take over our shot. If we're not running them correctly, they don't turn out to be accurate. There's anxiety involved in that. If I can back a person up and it's down to this message, not to sound too corny but your value does not have a thing to do whether you can shoot a bow well or not, you're a good hunter or anything in life like that.
It's perseverance and adversity.
My sons were competitors. They were Division 1 collar wrestlers and had big successes in their wrestling careers but their identity or who they were, dad's love, or any other thing had nothing to do with winning a stupid wrestling match or not. Whether it's shooting a bow, an arrow, bowling, or whatever, pick your sport, do it for the fun of the sport. You can be competitive and want to win. It's a game. It's not life or death. Be a good winner and a good loser. Do not wrap your identity up in how good or not good you are at this game. It sure makes the game more fun and breeds success.
You have to take the pressure off yourself. Let’s have an archery shot. Treat this shot like a math problem. There's a mental and physical sequence we go through to make a shot. You run the formula. There's a sequence of thoughts and actions you do to make your shot. Maybe it didn't go like you wanted to. What part of the equation there did we get wrong? You analyze your shot and say, “I didn't come into this transfer to hold the position. I didn't light up my body correctly. I didn't get a skeletal line. Let's run that formula again from start to finish.”
You've done it with me firsthand. You've changed me as an archer.
We get a good result. That's the formula. That's the one we got to run time after time. If something else breaks down, figure it out. It's not like, “It's throwing the boat down.”
When you figure it out, it's such a good feeling.
It's hard for people out there who might be reading that don't do archery. They look at maybe people in archery and shooting at a target on a wall like, “Why is that fun?” It's hard to describe but it's a skillset to be developed. As you develop this skillset and you start hitting in the middle of the target, there's a level of satisfaction there for obtaining the skillset. I swear it gives you those feel-good chemicals.
It does shooting a bone and going through the shot sequence. Since what you've taught me, I have a little mantra that is my shot sequence. I'm not a guy to meditate. I can't sit still but archery is mine. If I can shoot 50 arrows a day, I'm pretty happy. If I can do that in the first part of the day, I am extremely happy. Don't tell anybody but there's a reason why there's a target, even if it's 6 feet. Think about anything else like, “Did I pay my mortgage? What am I going to have for dinner tonight?” None of those thoughts are going through your head.
Let me tell you how much I get that. I'm in an archery shop every day of my life. I'm serving customers and teaching archery. A stressful day to me is like a day where there's not enough help for the customers available. I feel like we didn't give as good a service as we could've. That's stressful for me or I'm pulled in fifteen directions all day. I'll go home and I've been in around archery all day. I grab my bow. I'll walk out back and the whole world calms. It's me and the bow. They're shooting some arrows and everything melts down. I said, “I'm ready for the evening.”
There's something about that shot sequence that you taught me about shooting through back tension. Is it the closed-loop mindset?
Closed loop, that'd be Joel Turner's terms for consciousness, staying in consciousness, and executive function. Being a conscious movement, for instance, is one that's slow enough that you can evaluate, change, and stop while you're doing it. A movement that starts and stops, there's no changing. It starts and ends as a subconscious movement. Consciousness can only be applied to one thing at a time. Conscious control of a movement can only go to that movement.
You're using both in a shot sequence.
A shot sequence is how you practice a sequence or break an archery shot into pieces. We have a basic stance where we knock an arrow. For a recurve, it'd be setting your hook and fingers on the string in a particular way and shaping your wrist and everything in a particular way. For you, you're going to snap your release onto the D-loop. It's a hook and then we set our grip. There's a specific way you set the grip. You get those knuckles out there to 45. If you’re a right-handed person, you'll line that left side of the handle right on the lifeline so that pressure is on the thumb pad side of your hand. You extend your arms down there at 45. There's a little elbow orientation we worry about.
We set our shoulders down and lift the bow to about nose height. There's a specific way we draw the bow to keep your shoulders healthy. We want to use our back muscles. There are some angles and movements from different angles that we teach you. We come into that draw and an anchor point, a specific place we place our hand every single time on our face.
For recurve archers, there's another extra movement to obtain alignment. We rotate that elbow behind the string, which aligns our skeletal structure from front to back. When our skeletal structures are lined up, it reduces muscular tension. It's a much more comfortable physical and mental place to be. That's our holding position. We put an aim on the target and let the aims settle. We look at the target. Like when we're driving a car and looking at the middle of the lane and we let the steering go to the subconscious, we do that with the aim. Steer those little micro-adjustments in the steering wheel. You say, “How is that happening?”
The same thing happens while aiming a bow. If you look at the spot you want to hit, the subconscious will make all those little adjustments and keep your bow right there. That allows the conscious spine to come back to the backside, your string hand, and produce a movement that will make the bow go off as a surprise. When the bow goes off as a surprise, arrows going to be shot right exactly to where it's aimed.
In contrast for archery geeks, if we punch the trigger and say, “Now,” our brain is going to know exactly when the bow is going off. It's shocking to our bodies. Our body is going to contract some muscles and it's going to move our bow hand a very little bit. That's going to happen at the point at which you're shooting because it's the now moment. “I'm shooting now.” That little movement occurs.
I have to show this to archers all the time. An 8-inch of movement at the bow hand is going to cause about a 10-inch miss at 20 yards. That little movement is so small to be imperceptible and it's timed right with the bow going off. You never even know what's happening. You say, “It's the WTF moment. Why did I miss by 10 inches? That aim was perfect.” It's this little movement that braces yourself for the shock. That's why we have to make a firearm or a bow go off as a surprise.
At the end of that shot, it's consciousness. We have to consciously control a very slow movement and that movement makes your release break or sear when it breaks. When we move our hook through the string on a recurve, that creates a subconscious release and the arrow goes right to where it’s aimed. That would describe a physical and mental sequence of an archery shot if you're uninitiated. That's a snapshot.
I love it and that's why I'm getting back to it. It's a form of meditation because you have to calm yourself and your breathing down.
You have to set your mind to the task.
If you don't, you will fail.
That's the way we had to learn it in those pieces. It's the 1, 2, 3, then 4. You repeat that sequence consciously. We learn in the conscious realm. We're making each of those pieces perfect. Your brain imprints every movement you ever make like movements that we repeat. It imprints that whole segment of movements sometimes. It starts doing this and then pretty soon, instead of, “1, 2, 3,” you notice that these positions to movements are like, “1 and 2, 3 and 4 and 5.” All this stuff starts acting seamlessly. When that seamless set of movements comes up into holding position and it's running automatically right to a spot you want, you don't have to put that conscious control to that anymore.
Your brain imprints every movement you ever make.
It's like footing one foot in front of the other and walking.
You let it flow. It's imprinted in your brain as a whole complex set of movements but it's one motor program that includes ten factors that you learn how to learn individually. That's how we learn any complex skill. We break it into pieces and consciously learn each piece in order. As that gets imprinted, the brains of this amazing supercomputer on your shoulders integrate that. “I see what you're doing. It anticipates our needs. 2 follows 1.” Now, it's 1 and 2.
It all flows together. Then 2 and 3 and 4. With archery shots, if you ever watch, especially a recurve shooter, that is a beautiful thing to see. That both sweeps up. They come into their anchor. Their elbow sweeps back behind the arrow. They settle on the target and the follow-through happens. That arrow launches. You see that trajectory path bend to the target. It's a beautiful thing.
I admire watching you guys shoot. I shoot a compound and that's what I prefer to shoot because of the time that I can put in and stuff. It is a goal eventually to maybe get into a little bit more on the trad side. I don't know that I'll ever make the jump.
I did it to shoot a recurve sometimes because the bows were beautiful. You're like, “This is fun,” then I kept shooting it. It was never intended to be my weapon of choice because I started with a compound.
I gave my son the choice. When he showed some interest in archery, I was lit right up.
My little buddies come with me.
It was something I didn't force on him. It's like if dad's out there shooting every night, eventually, they're going to want to. His first bow was one of the little bear fiberglass, like this kid. I had you set it up with some arrows and stuff but then eventually, he outgrew that and was starting to shoot pretty decent. I gave him the choice. I was like, “Do you want to buy it? Do you want to compound for your next bow or stick to the traditional side?”
He had spent enough time at Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear and seeing all of you guys. He was like, “Dad, I want to shoot traditionally still.” I was like, “You're going to one-up me.” It was awesome. We got some lessons from you and Jerry. You put his shot process together and his accuracy is increasing. It's gratifying watching somebody else go through that and make that motion but even one of your children is even more amazing.
We're to the point where he can go and shoot from the traditional stakes at a 3D course. How fun is that? We brought him down to your guys' golden shoot a couple of times. He had a blast. That's such a cool thing. Shout-out to American Bowmen. I was up there and had 40 targets. It makes my day. I’ve been up there for two and a half hours.
For those that don’t know, American Bowmen is a club in the mountains near Bailey and it is in the forest. You're shooting downhill, uphill, and sidehill in this beautiful setting. Also, shooting across the creek. It's a walk through the woods with your boat.
There's about a 50-foot cliff shot in there.
Shooting off a cliff at something, how cool is that?
Not to knock it but get out of here with your total archery challenge and all those people. I go up there and I'm by myself.
We got stuff real close. That's super cool.
I’m using it for me to get in shape for hunting season. I throw a pack on and run between some of the targets. Not all of them. To shape some of them, you're traversing almost. You're hiking in. There are 1,000 feet of elevation climb if you do both sides. It's a lot of up and down. It's made my shooting so much better.
Shooting under conditions where you'll hunt.
Scott, have you been up there in 2023?
Not yet.
Scott has got the course set up. It's nasty. There are some knee shots. There are a lot of branches in the way because you got to anticipate the arrow. The trad shots are set up pretty sweetly. You're always peeking around a tree, some sort of cover, or something. It's so much fun. I love going up there with you sometime if you ever have time. It's a great spot. Putting in the time and learning that shot sequence has made me much better. It's been from your coaching. Ultimately, how did you put all this stuff together to come up with your coaching methods? There are a lot of coaches out there and you are certified through USA Archery as a Level 4 instructor.
That whole thing honestly started as an accident many years ago. Our local archery club rents that ground from the City of Golden. Golden Archery Club says, “We'll rent you this ground and keep the lease going if you allow our Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, or youth groups to use the range and then supervise them. To supervise them, you need certified instructors. We want at least Level 2 certified instructors.” I was a guy that's shooting a bow all my life at that time and was looking for archery instruction. I couldn't find a DVD or book. I was like, “How do I do this better? I couldn't find anything.”
The local club sends out a meal. We want five volunteers to be certified instructors. We'll pay for it. You got to volunteer to do these groups when they come in. I raise my hand right away. What's a certified instructor with USA Archery? I got into this thing. It was a level 1 and 2 course. It was a weekend course, 20 hours, 10 hours for 2 days. That's another reason they wanted certified instructors. If you're a USA-certified instructor, you have a background check and insurance.
There's a certain level of proficiency in being able to shoot and teach proper archery involved. Proper archery is not only producing accuracy but protecting the health of your shoulders in particular. Archery is a repetitive motion injury sport. You’re learning the biomechanics behind what you do too and putting people in positions and movements that won't hurt themselves.
Proper archery is not only about producing accuracy but also protecting the health of your shoulders.
It is crazy. You've fixed a couple of things on me. I was having shoulder pain and wrist pain before I came and saw you. Micro-adjustments made a huge difference. If I would've kept shooting that way, when I'm your age, I don't know that I would be able to shoot. How many bow hunters have shoulder problems?
A lot of the old guys and old styles. Discomfort leads to pain. Pain leads to injury. There's a lot of tough people out there that'll shoot through that discomfort and say. I could get fancy with the words and everything but I won't go there. They can get an impingement that causes inflammation. Inflammation causes a bone spur to lacerate a tendon. That's a progression of an archery movement. Movements from baseball or any other sport, it’s the same thing, repetitive motions. That's a big part of what we learn in these certifications. I've gone up to the certification levels and because I have an archery shot, I got to start teaching proper archery many years ago.
Culminated at the Olympic Training Center for a Level 4 certification is 50 hours of the classroom over a week and 45 of that right in front of the Olympic coach. It's all diced into teaching modules on every little nuance in an archery shot and the physicality of mental management. It ends in some severe testing, like three and a half hours of narrative testing. They give you pictures of archers. You have to pick out what's mechanically incorrect in what they're doing from a picture, tell them what's mechanically correct, and then narrate how you'd coach that.
If you get through this three-and-a-half-hour written exam with all these pictures and narrations with 90% or above, you get to go have a personal interview test with the Olympic coach. There are probably 150 nuanced things about a shot sequence that you have to tell him and they check them off. While you're narrating this stuff, you show them how you can coach it. That was a heck of an experience. The pass rate is usually low but I did get through it. There's a long story I won't go into but it was very stressful.
That's awesome that they vet that much though because then that certification means something. There are a ton of certifications out there that you can get and it might as well be a piece of paper that you handwrote yourself.
Those early certifications are so basic but that's the time you've been to the Olympic Training Center. I'll tell you that information was so in-depth that it probably took me a year to digest, internalize this, and be able to teach it well. I've seen throughout the last many years of coaching archery, about every six months I look back, I wish I knew that to teach that guy. It's continued to be that way. It’s this huge quest to know what I don't know and be aware that I don't know anything.
There have been subject matters I don't know. I could go after that but it's driving me crazy what I don't know or how I better communicate it. I've had many years of who knows how many thousands of people I get to teach or communicate this to practice. I've had great relationships with Joel Turner SHOT IQ. I've coached him in seminars and clinics all over the country. I've been in the catbird seat. I got all this stuff from the living training center. I have this friendship relationship co-coaching with a guy like Joel Turner, a subject matter expert in target panic and what's going on with the brain there. I did integrate all that information.
He's a former police sniper or something.
He's a SWAT sniper. He spent some time as a farm instructor at Washington State Police Academy. He's highly immersed. Joel brought to the archery world and verbalized things that we never talked about. There were things like subject-to-link bracing Joel brought to light and verbalized when he was teaching management tools or how to run your triggers. This is what we're teaching because we have this phenomenon called link bracing.
Our body will react to anything that gives us pressure shocker impact with a muscle contraction, a brace, and a flinch. That's a hardwired subconscious activity. We have to beat that. That's why we press the trigger real slow until a gun goes off as a surprise. Otherwise, we'll brace. If we press the trigger, our brain's going to know when the gun's going to go. We're going to contract muscles and pull the barrel off.
Not to mention if you have some adrenaline running through your body. It's a different thing.
That gets exaggerated because the reaction is there. Calm people have slow reactions but everybody's reactive, flinch, brace, or movement goes up as anxiety goes up. When we're a hunter or a target archer in a tournament, those reactions can be huge.
Everybody's reactive flinch, brace, or movement goes up as anxiety goes up. When we're a hunter or a target archer in a tournament, those reactions can be huge.
It's massive. I made some serious mistakes with that.
Everybody that's an archer has. We have to know how to manage that. Joel's son is probably the best archer on the planet, arguably. At fifteen, he won Vegas in the Open Pro Division.
Didn't he set some world record there?
He's done three perfects. Vegas targets are 10, 9, 8 to 1. Ten is a very small circle in the middle and inside is the X ring. At Lancaster, the X ring is worth eleven. There's a 60-year qualifying round. He hit the X-ring 60 times in a row. He was the only third one to do it. Now he's the 3rd and 4th one to do it. Joel's had him with him since we were little kids. He's doing shooting demos as a flipping eight-year-old and outshooting everybody that's watching. He was built to do this. Plus Joel's teaching is phenomenal. You get an archer that grew up and loved it with his dad. He’s probably going to be pretty good. Who knew he'd be the best guy around?
Let’s come back full circle to that video we were talking about because we never got to the end of it. I know you and your family. Some of your family works in the archery shop. I met your wife before on a Sunday when we were doing one of those adaptive shoots or something like that. Your whole family is immersed in it and were generous, kind people. I thought that this video portrayed that well. I'm glad that you said yes to this guy to come out and follow you guys around.
We shortcutted that story but we eventually talked to him about it and said, “You can follow us.”
What's the name of that film?
The Intimate Weapon on YouTube. He falls around for two years hunting. He came to the shop and filmed some stuff. We didn't know what this was going to be when it finished and we were blown away. I couldn't tell if it was a romance or a lifestyle story.
It starts with your wife. It was well done. I've said no to a lot of media stuff in my career. Working for rock bands, they always want to do the backstage or behind-the-scenes film and interview with the crew guys or stage managers. Every time I've seen those huge companies come in when they're shooting like a DVD, a TV exposé, or something like that, they chop it up.
It portrays nature.
It makes the guys look like a bunch of jackasses. I've always said no to that. That's why I have a passion for podcasting because I don't script anything.
I asked you what will we talking about here and you said, “I don't know. We're just going to talk.” I was like, “Give me our shot sequence.” It's easy for me. Getting me on is going to be harder.
I'm probably lying to you a little bit. I've been thinking about it all day. One reason why I went to American Bowmen to shoot 40 shots was to go there by myself. I didn't invite anybody. It was like, “How do I want this conversation to go with Tom?” I still get nervous with you here. You're a living legend to me.
That makes me uncomfortable.
I've been around a ton of famous people. I don't want this to come off the wrong way. I hold people that are good at influences or people that I aspire to be as my influencers. I try to block out the other stuff. You're one of those.
I'm an Average Joe. I have a skillset in teaching archery and become well-known in that niche. When people will ascribe big terms to me, it makes me very uncomfortable. From there, all I can do is let you down. I never want to let anybody down.
It's more your demeanor, the way that you carry yourself. I've never seen you get agitated or stressed. You don't show it.
I don't want to ever show that. We're all human beings and I have those moments but I don't want to take it out on anybody else.
What I was getting at the beginning of the show and I was fumbling over my words, it is your family. Danny is like that a lot. Your entire family is around there. Everybody that I run into that's a Clum is the nicest person. You want to spend hours with them and you can. It’s inviting to be around.
People complimented me or my wife on raising great kids but in the end, I compliment them. They've made choices in their life that are great. That's on them. What kind of people they've turned out to be is on them. I'm proud of it as a parent but it's on them. You set those bumpers right.
You hope that they make good decisions. Being a father of three, I'm starting to figure that out. Some of the conversations that we've had in the archery shop and one of the reasons why I look up to you is I remember having a conversation with you off the cuff. I was like, “I'm worried about how you keep your kids interested in hunting.” There are so many life values and distractions. My son is doing football and is getting training at the highest level you could get through the show, which is amazing. He has this passion for football. You face a lot of adversity in the backcountry. You get cold, wet, and tired.
You sweat and shiver.
You might go elk hunting for twenty days and not see an elk. There are all kinds of stuff that happens and I was asking you, “How did you keep your boys and family interested in it?” You were like, “Treat them like a bird dog.”
I joke, “Train them like a bird dog.” I make sure they had fun. If we went fishing and they want to throw rocks in the lake, I let them throw rocks in the lake because I wanted them to have fun with dad in the backcountry. If we're shooting our bows, I'm setting up ten cans and balloons because I want them to have fun. I always left a little before they wanted to. I keep that desire alive.
That's the one that I use all the time. I've used it in football. It applies in many spots in life. If you have the hunger to go do more and you get bored with something, move on and forget it.
I don't want them to get bored being with Dad because I want to be with Dad and have a good time. They're my hunting partners still and I'm an old man. They're mature adults.
Your grandkids are out there. You’re field-dressing that moose in that video. One of the coolest parts is there's so much value in children seeing that stuff that a lot of parents would shelter their kids from.
My kids and grandkids know exactly where their food comes from the ground up. That's reality and life. It's not been that long in human civilization that people didn't know where their food came from. Many years ago, everybody knew that wrapped stake with self over it was an animal standing on the ground somewhere.
It's not been that long in human civilization since people didn't know where their food came from—maybe 50 to 100 years ago. Everybody knew that wrapped stake with celling over it was an animal standing on the ground somewhere.
More importantly, what has that animal been through to make it to the supermarket? How well does the butcher care about what's going on in your body than you would yourself? You don't know if's been drug through its feces.
We are taking huge care of our game animals. We get them cooled right away and cleaned for processing. It's all about cleanliness and making sure that the food that we're bringing home is fantastic and the healthiest food we can have.
I subscribe to that so much because it's changed me physically, primarily switching almost 95% of my diet to wild game, which means I have to be a better hunter. It’s so important to me. I got the science to back it up. That's the crazy part.
My kids and grandkids didn't buy meat very often growing up. They're like, “What are we eating today?” I've been to Texas and was like, “This is a pig, pheasant, or deer.”
My kids are the same way. Their favorite thing to eat is backstrap. They know the difference between steak. Bison is at the top of the list. It's going out of the freezer very fast. The kids are like, “Can you make steaks again tonight?” I will cook steak for every meal. It's super important. There are a lot of values in that as a kid. Your approach has helped me. Those little moments like that, when you've shared something, were personal. We've known each other for a few years but we don't hang out all the time or anything.
I am pretty easy to have a deep conversation with because I can go from adolescent humor to serious and a heartbeat. I'm that guy, and then get fun again.
That's why I love having you in. Where were we at in conversation before that?
I’m talking about that catbird seat because I had all this stuff in archery at the living training center. I have a guy like Joel Turner and a movement expert named Matt Bernard who I counsel with. “How do we teach movement? How it creates movement? What's the muscular involved in this movement?”
He's like a sports trainer.
He's a licensed massage therapist and has a different style where he's going to the connection spots. He doesn't flatten muscle out. He'll work on connections that allow these muscles to maintain or gain function. It's too complicated for me to describe properly. This guy is a Physiology expert. I've talked to a lot of orthopedics because I'll pick their brain about Physiology and Biomechanics. I haven't talked to an orthopedic doctor that was as good at explaining to me things as Matt, as far as the whole muscular neural systems go. He'll give me a drill to create movement here but I'll use those concepts to create movement there. In an archery lesson, I'm having people move in ways.
Your knowledge in telling me what tendon was in my shoulder and what I was pinching, I was like, “Where's Tom's PhD on the wall because I'm not seeing it?”
I'm learning things. I can see pictures but I haven't been in a body before. A lot of it is parroting what I'm learning. I haven't seen it but Matt worked on thirteen cadavers. He knows everything. If I have a problem or people have pain, or I want to know what this person is doing to create pain and it's outside of my body's knowledge, I can ask him that. He's going to say, “I don't know. I can't look at the guy. We can't look inside his body but this can create this and that. Let's look here or there.” A lot of times, we'll come to solutions that'll relieve pain, things that are outside of my body of knowledge.
The things that he has taught me are how to communicate movement to a person, cue it, and think about it. Also, how do we get a brain-neural muscle connection to a specific movement? You do a movement. It doesn't look like an archery shot but later when we put it in an archery shot, you've already got brain access to that muscle group to make that movement. Things like that make me a bit more effective coach.
I dive into the whole psychotherapy world, brain function, and brain chemicals. We want to stay in the prefrontal cortex, executive function, and defense responses. All that stuff shows up in an archery shot, believe it or not. There's a lot of stuff from that world that's my latest dive into and I don't want to get too much into that stuff that's learning about not super practical applications. I'm always searching for a better way to do this and communicate it.
I'm always searching for a better way to do things and communicate them.
It's crazy how it's evolved, even from when I started shooting a bow as a kid.
It's getting better all the time.
There’s one thing that we touched on in our previous conversation that I had to go back to it. I was cringing every time I talked but there's some great information in there. We started talking about history and Native American culture, bow curing, and the construction of archery. You brought up a point. I interrupted you and didn't let you elaborate on it a little bit. You've studied some shot sequences from history. There is some documented stuff on how the Mongolians put together their shot sequence and what their training process was or stuff like that. Have you dove into that?
As much as I can with the information available, it was in the ancient cultures so there's no written evidence of a lot of stuff. You look at the Mongols or the Huns. They were horseback riders. They would shoot. They had these short bows and the technology. They figured out it was amazing. They had these big sweeping curves to the ends of the bows that are a 6-inch static piece of wood. They would back the bows. On the front side of the bow, they would line it with these little sheets of horn, which would stiffen the bow and make them more powerful.
Is that why some traditional bow builders put some antler, rams horn, or something?
That’s mostly on the tip overlays to secure and make those stronger but they will back the bow, which is the front side of the boat with sinew that strengthens the bow. It doesn't let the fibers lift from the wood and it will make it stiffer and more powerful.
You guys have a couple of those in the shop.
If you see that guy, he's shooting with his thumb and is shooting the arrow off the right side. He is a right-handed archer but the arrow is on the right side and he's shooting with his thumb. That's what aligns his eye better.
That's how Joel shoots.
Our style is more like the English longbow style. It's three fingers, the right hand of the archer, and the arrow will be on the left side because that's going to align with the right eye. When you're on the thumb, the arrow's way further out there and it lines on the right side of the bow better. Look at those cultures or the Comanche. Our natives got horses with very short bows. They were devastating warriors that overwhelm people.
They were crushing people and anything that was in their path. They were savages.
They were tough people, whether it was other natives or the White people that came into their territories.
I have a friend of mine I want to introduce you to at some point. I don't know how much Comanche is but he's one of the most prominent coaches in the UFC. It makes sense. It is his mindset. He's a bow hunter too. He's killed some awesome stuff.
I have a native friend and he had a self-bow. It's not very long. It's short. He'd shoot it more at the hip. It was a very short-range weapon but he took an elk with that. It was very heavy. It was 65 pounds at 24 inches. He'd pull that 24 inches. He’s a big old guy. He'd shoot it right here. This is 10 yards an end. This is the ultimate hunting skill. If you look at the Japanese with that short bottom limb and the long top limb, and they raise their hands way above their head, sweep down into the draw and it anchors way behind their ear, the arrow is on the side of the boat.
It's crazy. It looks like they're going to flick the bow.
It's an archery form style developed in that culture, the English longbow culture. There were war bows. They drew them under their chin. They're shooting long-range. They have it under the chin anchor. It's a high launch angle because they're clout-shooting. They're shooting hundreds of arrows at the enemy at the same time with very heavy bows and arrows.
It's interesting to me. I would love to immerse myself more in how those styles of shooting progressed. Archery is a guild in each culture. A guild is a body of knowledge. Each generation doesn't have to learn that body of knowledge or they get to bring that body of knowledge forward and then there'll be some thinkers in the next generation or science improves. They add to that body of knowledge. The next generation gets that body of knowledge to start with.
You can see that these forms of shooting developed in cultures over time like ours. Our national training system that I teach at the Olympic Training Center is set forth by our Olympic coach. It's meant to be a living body of knowledge. In other words, if they find science that changes how they do things, they change NTS. The way you hook the string has been changed three times in the last many years. I've been coaching a certified coach.
These forms of shooting developed in cultures over time. It's meant to be a living body of knowledge.
That's good that they evolve because some sciences do not. They stick to their guns with, “This is how it was or what we originally thought,” even if they've been proven wrong. They still keep and teach it that way. That's cool. You're making me like archery even more. I was so fortunate that I went on that bison experiment. Are you familiar with Donny Dust?
No.
He's been on the TV show alone. He's a primitive survival guy. He made me all these arrowheads.
That's where these came from. They're beautifully knapped heads.
He's an incredible knapper. He makes his bows and does it all the primitive traditional way. Most of his stuff is set up that way. He was brought into some science experiments with CU Boulder on hunting megafauna. The closest thing that we have to megafauna like a mammoth or something like that is bison. They've gotten to do all these experiments where they've thrown at laterals. He shot his bow at a bison.
They're looking at penetration, point break, different rocks from different regions, different methods of fluting the arrowhead or spearpoint and how much they fill the flute, foreshaft or no for the shaft, and different types of wood from what would love to stick. He invited me to one. We got to field dress a bison using nothing but stone tools. It was an incredible experiment.
Was it to you surprisingly effective?
It is unbelievably effective.
What are those videos that he sent to us?
Those are Devin's videos. He said that we could use them. Dr. Devin Pettigrew is going to be my next guest. He's the guy that put on this experiment but they had probably about 20 makers and 300 different points. They would dye the point. They would put this special ink on it. It almost looked like green, purple, or something. If a little chip broke off, the edge wore, or something like that, they could see the point break. They had high-speed cameras. That was a slate arrowhead from an Arctic slate.
It's pretty unbelievably effective and the science behind it is. This is so they can better understand when they find stuff like this Folsom site or something like that. That's a lateral dart. Look at it in comparison to that bison. That shaft is probably 3/4-inch but it was cool. The methods of construction are what I got into. There are four shafts that go into that shaft. They machined or handmade it perfectly so it would stop because they were breaking their four shafts. I got invited to the fifth experiment that they've done.
They've learned a lot along the way about construction methods and how much the flute should be filled. There are a ton of knappers that were involved with this too, Donny Dust, Dr. Devin Pettigrew, and myself. The second half of the experiment was us field-dressing it. It was cool. They let me take a ton of meat. Donny was gracious enough. I got a ton of bison meat out of it. It was up in the medicine bow at Eagles Wing Ranch. It was an incredible ranch and an incredible process. I'll never complain about cutting up an elk with a perfectly good blade in my life after using stone tools for 7 or 8 hours.
Can I tell a couple of related stories with stone stuff?
Yes.
A buddy of mine was into arrow hunting. It was his favorite hobby.
I'm a flint knapper.
He made me a skinner scraper. I fold my fingers apart 3 inches. You held it in your hand. It fits right in your hand. You've got your four fingers around and your thumb on top. I carried one of those old coin purse plastic that you pinch and it split down in the middle and opens up in my pack for one year. I didn't get anything. I forgot to take it with me. I got an elk and I skinned a whole elk with that thing. It's highly effective.
I was with Tyler Freel, who's a full-time rider for Outdoor Life. He shoots a grizzly bear with a longbow of wooden arrows and a stone point. That was quite an experience. That stone point was tuned to this arrow. It was about 200 grains. They had a flint knapper out of Utah who make two of them. We were sitting in tree stands in a sight and this grizzly bear came in. It was quartered more towards Tyler than Tyler thought. He hit it right behind the shoulder but I could tell the exit was going to be far back on the other side. It’s a lethal hit but not immediate lethal. The bear roared. I was 10 yards from the bear sitting in a tree when it was shot holding 2 cameras, 1 on Tyler and 1 on the bear.
This thing roars and takes off. Tyler said, “It stopped 60 yards away. It's dead right there.” I'd seen the angle. I said, “We ought to probably come back tomorrow for that. He was quarter to you pretty bad. I don't think we should go look for that in an hour.” He goes, “No, I could hear it stop in 60 yards. I can hear him for 150 yards here.” I said, “I don't know. I think probably tomorrow's better.”
I reaped around the tape and I had it on tape. I could see how quarter to it was. I said, “Tyler, we'll come back.” We had this rolling conversation. I'm being obnoxious. I said, “You got to see this video.” He goes, “Bluetooth it to me.” I'm like, “You can do that?” We're in 2 and 3 stands. He looks at it and goes, “Maybe we'll wait two hours.” I said, “Maybe tomorrow morning?” He goes, “No, two hours because I heard it stop.”
You were walking up on a wounded grizzly.
We got him to three hours and we went to the boat because we were off of a river. He got this big old 375 Ruger and a chest rig with a Glock 10 millimeter. We go looking for the blood trail. There's not much blood. I'm looking for stuff to dive under. This is an all-hairs-standing-up experience. There was nothing but chest-high brush in front of us and he hears it stand up. He sticks his fist out behind me to stop. He backs up slowly and said, “It's right there. We got to sneak out of here.” We snuck out and came back the next day. That had got in it to move. That thing stood up in front of us 15 yards away. It was plenty lively. That was a close call.
We had one of the best experiences of our life. The blood ran out. We were tracking depressions in the fauna and found about 600 yards away expired but I got to participate with that and see my friend Tyler take a grizzly bear with a longbow wooden arrow and a stone point. The stone point did the job. For the animal is not in the quarter to and it had been more broadside, it'd been double long. It'd been over in 30 seconds. It passed through the length of the animal, went to the far side, into the back leg, and shattered the back leg bone.
It's incredible. Some of those points were shattering ribs on a bison. It still had some of its winter coat on.
I'm looking at those videos. That's a lot of hides that thing has got to go through long hair.
We had a couple of pass-throughs. They brought up a good point when I was up there. I was the annoying guy that was got brought along on a science experiment. I'm asking Devin all kinds of stupid questions.
There's that one that failed. It looked like it must have hit a rib. A point broke off and it bounced straight back out.
A lot of it was the attachment method to the actual foreshaft as it broke. The point that he was making is some of the experiments that they can't do is when this thing penetrates and sticks in there, even if it doesn't pass through, if the animal starts to run or move, it's sitting in their sawing. These things are pretty gnarly.
Did they find that the smaller heads, like what they'd call bird points, penetrated better?
That one had such good penetration. There was one stuck in a rib. The slate looked like it was a machine made almost. It was so perfect.
It’s what Donny is talking about. You see how that swayed back and forth.
That's an atlatl there. I've found some bird points that are tiny but this one was probably about 1/2 or 3/4 of an inch wide at the back where you tie it on and maybe 1 and 1/4 or something in overall length. It looked like 1 of your 2 blade Cutthroat Broadheads. Whoever made that app, I was like, “Did this come out of a machine?” They're like, “No, it was handmade but these are the points that they find in the arctic up there.”
They had stoned from like Georgetown and also obsidian. In the butchering process, these are some of the ones that I use that Donny calls blooded. I said, “If you're going to invite me to this, I want to bring these up to the experiment.” I started with that one. What I quickly found out is these flakes like this have no serration or anything to them where the key is getting through the hide, especially around the neck and on the hooves.
The edge is much fine. This was what I used.
It works unbelievably. I had all kinds of knicks on my hand but this one's made of obsidian. I quickly found out this is almost like a glass. That one was more of a surgical tool and it's pretty dull. That's what I was taking some of the organs and stuff out, where you had to make some fine cuts and soft tissue. What a cool experience.
We could see these knives or heads are beautiful.
I'm super fortunate. Also, to get the meat on top of that. The whole experience was incredible. That's enough about me. Let’s go back to history. I'm so intrigued by that. That's why it was special for me to go on this. You learn something about yourself when you face a little bit of adversity because one hour in, I was like, “This is going to take forever.” Donny and me going to town, there's all kinds of stuff that you learn and it makes you appreciate a good blade. At the same time, I want to put myself back through that punishment of going and doing it again.
That's a big animal. It has a lot of cutting, time, and hard work. It produced a lot of good meat.
You've had some pretty incredible experiences in the last couple of years. You are back from Australia. You've had an Alaska trip. You've got Colorado moose under your belt. Let's hear about some of that. Where do you want to start?
In March and April 2023, I got to go to Australia and New Zealand. I told you about the relationships I get to make through archery. A fellow named Ben Maher had come to America to go to our big traditional shoot-up on the flat tops area. I came to see Joel. We get some coaching and wanted to visit America. That was the weekend when the whole thing got rained out. Joel flew home and Ben was going to be around for another three days. He was in a hotel. I said, “Check out of your hotel. You're coming home with me.”
We'd hit it off. He is a good man. He was like, “I couldn't impose it.” I was like, “Ben, you will insult me if you don't check out of your hotel and take up what I'm offering here. I'd like you to come and stay with us.” I put pressure on him and he did. I took a couple of days off and we went up. He wanted to stump shooting our mountains. We shot our bows and saw some sights. We had a little taste of Colorado and worked on our shots and his shot.
Had he ever been to the Rocky Mountains before?
No. I'm pretty sure this is the first time.
It’s different than Australia.
He loved it. When we were up in that high country shoot, I set up a big wall tent with a stove in it. We had a foot of snow that night. We got up with a cup of coffee and cooked on the wood stove. He's in the middle of this elk country. He is like, “This is a good experience. I'm with these men in this environment.” He loved it. Sometime later he says, “I'd like you to come to Australia and do some shooting clinics. I want to go with you to New Zealand and do a red stack hunt, you and Joel.”
I don't have that budget. In the archery business, you don't get real rich. I go, “That sounds awesome but I'll have to see what that costs and how long I'll have to save for that. I'd love to do it.” He's like, “I didn't say anything about you paying for it. You're coming. This is on me.” I was like, “I couldn't accept something like that. Those are expensive.” He's like, “You will insult me if you don't accept my offer. I'm pretty well healed. I can afford this.”
In the archery business, you don't get really rich.
What's this guy's name?
He's @BenMaher73 on Instagram. He’s a terrific guy and a Renaissance man. He was born with a good education. He was a Muay Thai fighter for thirteen years. He's a horseman or wrangler. He's a musician. He’s an old consummate, renaissance, tough, and cultured guy. He is extremely intelligent. He can talk about the history of American archery better than any American I've ever been around. He grew up in archery also. He loves the long bow. I made a friendship lifelong.
He's Australian. He's from Melbourne. That's where he lives. We spent 2.5 weeks with him in Melbourne and 1 week in New Zealand. I don't know about him but we never got tired. His company was fantastic. He’s an unbelievable host and a generous person. I had a fantastic experience there. We did a 2-day shooting clinic with a bunch of Aussies and then a 1 day up at the horse ranch where he grew up. This clinic was a bunch of rough characters. When I say rough, rugged outdoorsmen. There are some guys from way up North and some guys travel 1,000 miles but these are rugged outback men. Good hunters and sportsmen in the mix but a mix of Aussies from all over the place.
There was one of Ben's friends named Andy. Andy's an artist and some kind of a musician. He's legally blind. He can't see anything in focus 2 inches past his eye. The world is a blur to him. Andy came and wanted to be among these types of fellas. He has been a city-cultured guy but he wanted to be with men. We go to this clinic and Ben's hoping for the best. It was a weekend. On Friday night, they got there and all had a chance to have a beer, shoot their bows together, and get to know each other.
I was seeing these men from all over Australia bond. We did this clinic. We did a lot of shooting that first afternoon and then some more shooting clinic in the morning. During that time, I'm noticing that Andy has been pulled in by these rugged fellas right into the group. I'm hearing him talk. One of the guys says, “Do you see what I mean, Andy?” One of the other fellas says, “He can't see what you mean. He's blind.”
That was the most perfect thing that man could have said because Andy is part of the group. He's getting his chops busted like everybody else. Andy had the biggest smile on his face. He knows he's one of those men. It was so cool to see how they welcomed him in from a different part of the country and culture and made him a part of everything. It was so heartwarming. Andy had always shot with a spotter because he can't see.
Andy came to me and said, “Is there any way you think you could help me shoot without a spotter?” When person's limited in what they can do physically, you always ask them what they can do, not what they can't do. I said, “I think so. When you hold that bow out at arm's length, can you see the shape of the bow and arrow sitting on top of the arrow shelf?” He goes, “It's fuzzy but I can see that.” We were standing about 25 yards from the target and there was a black bullseye. I said, “Can you see the bullseye? What do you see down there at the target?”
He goes, “I see a fuzz of the target face but I see a black fuzzy spot.” I said, “If you can see that, you don't need a spotter. What we're going to do is build a site picture. You're going to come into holding.” I was looking at the gap and how his face was set up. I made a guess. I said, “You can see the shape of the top of the arrow. You're going to hold that about 6 inches below that black spot and let your brain settle on that you're going to look at that black spot. As we've been learning the last day and a half, you're going to produce that back tension through the string right to your follow-through. It's all you bud. Let's try it.”
He comes up into holding. You see him adjusting to the sight picture of what he can see. He can see two fuzzy things that he can connect in a spatial relationship. He produces this shot. That arrow went right in the middle of that black spot. He goes, “Where did it hit?” I said, “That's right in the middle of the bullseye. It’s a well-executed shot.” He's like, “You're kidding me.” I said, “I am not kidding you. Do it again. Hit seven arrows.” To make a long story short, he shot all seven arrows.
I say, “You got to come up and see this because that is some the finest shooting of anybody in the clinic here.” I'm walking up there going, “Guys, come look at what Andy did. This is all unaided and unspotted.” He had a group of arrows you could put your thumb and index finger around. It was 25 yards with a longbow. Those guys were patting him on the back and lifting him. Seriously, that was a skillset that Andy developed all on his own. How cool was that? To see how warm those guys that felt like an outsider was made an insider. What a cool bunch of guys.
I communicate with a lot of them still great. One of the guys, Colin, gave me a bow that he made. He's a boyer out there. He gave me this knockout, beautiful atlatl bow. The experience of that was phenomenal, getting to know these guys from another country. We’re seeing a culture and the difference in politics. They're not divisive like we are. The news is not divisive. I watched 1 or 2 hours of news. It was like, “The green party suggested this. The Conservatives oppose it for this,” and they move on.
They don't say, “The underhanded crook did this,” and the other side says the same thing. It wasn't any of the divisiveness. They agree to get along. They're 40 yards behind us. In that case, it was refreshing, honestly. It was awesome but very multicultural. The people in the outdoor arena there were gregarious and as welcoming as you could find. The experience in New Zealand was awesome. It’s a gorgeous country.
In Colorado, we have pretty places honestly but it's a different environment. We have fauna. It's weird. No biting bugs or mosquitoes. Red stag and deer are elk-like creatures about 3/4 of the size of an elk but with these giant antler racks that Paul made at the top with lots of points and spectacular animals. I had two close encounters and the stags got lucky that they didn't get shot by me because I did everything. It was a fantastic experience. I've already booked going back in 2024 with the band and hopefully my sons. Archery has given me these relationships that also allow me to do some fantastic things in different places.
Archery gives you relationships that allow you to do some fantastic things in different places.
That's how I feel about podcasting. It's the same thing. I've built so many relationships.
Your world expands with the wonderful people you get to meet like Tyler Freel. He came down and wrote an article about archery coaching. I said, “Stay at the house.” I got to know him over three days, staying at the house and coaching him in archery. He’s probably the finest example of a technically sound shooter of anybody I know. I've had a lot of guys stay at the house and get to know them through. If they're in a hotel and I get to know them, I say, “Check out your hotel, you're coming home.” That's what it's been to me. It's been a tremendous life-expanding thing.
I don't mean to change the subject because I want to come back to some of these other trips that you've been on but we had Donnie Vincent in. He thinks the world of you.
We love Donnie. He's a real deal.
He's a good human. When you see somebody on camera or something like that, you never know they take the contacts out of it but I've always loved the way that he portrays hunting. I align with his values and heart. He as an artist and film director is unbelievable. It’s the shots that he takes and the amount of time and thought process that goes into making a film.
They started Cinematography. Nobody was doing that before Donnie Vincent and his films. With the skill level and putting that whole thing together, nobody is like him.
Even the short films I thought were well done. I don't know if you've seen that. If you haven't, go and check them out. How I discovered Donnie was from you. I walked into Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear and was shooting some arrows. There’s this PSC banner. It’s a 20x30 banner. It's huge. Donnie is walking through a creek and I'm like, “Who is this guy? If Tom's putting him up in his archery shop, he must be good.”
I said, “Do you know this guy?” You were like, “Yes, that's Donnie Vincent.” I went down a rabbit hole, started watching his films, and fell in love with his films. When I started this show, I made a bucket list of guests that I wanted to have on. He was one of them. I got to check that box. He is an incredible dude. Thanks to you and me throwing some arrows at the targets there. There's a more-than-life-sized character on the side of the wall and it was Donnie Vincent.
In the hunting world, he's super well-known. He's a big name. He does spectacular adventures. He's a tough guy. He’s a real deal as far as an outdoorsman. He's a wildlife biologist of some kind. He's super knowledgeable. You meet him in life and he's that guy. He's a genuine, nice human being. He’s a great, righteous person. I admire Donnie.
We had a great time with him. He travels all this way and then comes to see us.
He's been extremely generous to our family. He's a good dude.
I’m super happy I was able to cross paths with him and he was on that PSC banner. I don't watch hunting shows. He and I talked about that. I can't sit there and watch the Outdoor Channel. I've been watching a little bit of Derek Wolfe because he's a friend. He started his hunt channel and stuff like that but other than that, I don't watch hunting shows.
I haven't watched any in several years.
These are different. I'm flipping through his YouTube video. I can keep flipping through and each one is epic.
They're incredible. I've bought every one of his films.
He's not just having hunting content to make a video.
They could be shown in an IMAX theater and the quality of them from start to finish. The stories were done well. He's a great guy.
I go to Alaska in 2022.
Was that with Tyler?
No, that was in previous years. That was 60 miles up the Yukon River and boats. We’re fishing in these clear little small rivers or creeks flowing into the Yukon. Yukon is this unbelievable mass of moving water with giant trees floating down and all kinds of stuff. It's one of the biggest rivers in the world. The water is brown. It's in the early summer spring so it's part of the runoff. It couldn't go for one year because the ice flows were late and it was too dangerous. It's 70 boat miles up there. Those guys who run those boats got to be on their toes because there are lots of giant things floating down that river at you.
It's so cool navigating on the water on a hunting trip. That's something that I haven't done. Donnie shows some of that.
It was an adventure. We’re sitting there, maybe fishing on the side where the creek comes in, and hearing these giant splashes where these trees finally decayed the banks, and then these massive trees fall into the river. Every 15 or 30 seconds, there's another one falling into the river because the forest is getting eaten away by the river. It hit a certain place in the bank.
That's a different type of country up there.
It's spectacular. Twenty-four hours of light is weird and that whole experience is something else. I like being with Tyler. He's aged or even younger than my sons but I have this friendship with him that we can talk anytime. We geek out about shooting or hunting. I always am interested in how his family's doing. It's another rewarding relationship with great friendships that archery has given to me, this thing that I do.
You had the Colorado moose tag or did you guys draw two Colorado moose tags?
My daughter-in-law has one coming. My wife and I drew archery cow moose tags. She ended up not being able to bow hunt because her shoulder was dinged up and she couldn't get her shoulder rehab to where she could shoot a hunting weight bow again. We traded hers on a rifle tag. I got one with my bow. Chris ended up getting a rifle. We've got lots of meat in 2023 for the entire family.
You got a big family.
I got ten grandkids. Tommy had 4, Danny had 3, and my daughter's got 3.
How much do you like being a grandfather, like having the grandkids around?
It's the best part of life. I'm looking at how my kids are raising their kids. My daughter's kids are the oldest and they're my buddies. We shoot together all the time. I'd take them to the archery shoots. They're good little archers. Sorry Tommy and Danny, I didn't know how to coach back when you guys were coming up.
Danny is a hunter too. I'd love to have Danny. Every time I'm in the shop, he's busy.
He is amazingly skilled. He's the entire package. He's got the physicality to do the miles and cover the country but he's got the patience to sit on a spotting scope for a couple of days if he needs to. It can spot in stock. He can move with imperceptible moving for hours on end to get close to something.
He shows some of the animals he put on the ground.
He's got tremendous trophies. He doesn't advertise. You won't probably even know about it except I've shown you. It's not for fame or something.
Danny is not a guy that'll sit here and tell you.
If he's going for a trophy, it's to extend his hunting time because he'll take that nice juicy cow elk fine but he'll hunt for that big bull because he can get that cow on the first day. He’s like, “Let's extend our season and immersion in the woods with these animals longer.” He's ended up taking some big trophies along the way.
Danny, if you're reading this, you're next. I'm going to put you in the hot seat.
He's an unbelievably good storyteller. I haven't talked about when my son-in-law got his first elk. I’ll let him tell that story because it's not about him. He'll tell a good story about Kelly getting his first elk.
I'm sure he’s got some stories about you too.
Maybe some embarrassing ones too but if he can get him to tell a story about a hunting experience that he did himself, it's very interesting and he's a good storyteller.
I'd love to have him in. I can't wrestle him to get him in here, not with your son's pedigrees and wrestling. Were you a wrestler as a kid?
Yes, in junior high school. I was this average wrestler and never got a lot of coaching.
Was your dad a hunter?
No. Dad was gone by the time I was fourteen. I had some help from Dad’s friends that would bring me here and there. I had half-brothers that would take me here and there. It spawned out of my desire and a lot of those old Fred Bear movies and American Sportsman.
I remember seeing some of those because I grew up in a bow-hunting family. That's what was on the TV on Saturday Night when they had VCRs. Wasn't American Sportsman on Saturday or Sunday?
Sunday. They'd have hunting and fishing segments of all different kinds. Mostly, it was rifles but they always had Fred Bear segments. Fred Bear had those movies that would travel to the theaters.
Was he a mentor? He was to so many bow hunters from your era.
We are watching those films that planted the seed or dream of wanting to do that.
He's got some crazy films. I need to go back and watch some of them. We were podcasting with somebody and somebody had brought up a film where he shot a grizzly through its eye in Alaska. It's charging him. I'm pretty sure it was Fred Bear.
There's one of Fred Bear shooting a giant brown bear that walks by a boulder.
Maybe it was a brown bear.
He didn't shoot an eye but he shot it walking by a boulder at point-blank range.
Those were some incredible films.
That guy planted a dream in tens of thousands of people to be bow hunters watching Fred Bear's special event. There's that grizzly bear walking by the boulder. That's not even 8 or 10 yards away. He's quite a guy.
I don't think it was Fred Bear that I'm recalling but there's a grizzly charging him and he shot it.
There are a lot of guys that have planted that seed. Fred Eichler planted a seed for many. Aron Snyder planted a seed for traditional archery or archery in general for so many.
There are a lot of brand-new Cafaro backpacks out there in the woods. They make an awesome pack. You've been one of those influences too for me, mainly. One time I walked into the archery shop and I don't even know what we were talking about or what subject. It was when I was thinking about making the switch to traditional archery. I told the story on the previous show. I bought a longbow in the marketplace and I came in. It was way too heavy. There's no way I could even shoot that thing.
You talked me into getting into a recurve, which I still own and will plink around with every once in a while. I don't know how we got down the subject but you were talking about all these guys coming in and wanting to tell me these stories of 60, 70, and 80-yard shots. I don't want to hear those stories. I want to hear the stories of from 10 yards or 5 feet, the spot and stalk methods. That's such an important part of bow hunting, especially on the traditional side. Your range is cut in half of probably what a car compound is, 1/3.
With those spot and stalk methods, somebody getting into it. It applies to compound hunting. The closer you are, the better chance you're going to have and the more accurate shot you're going to have even with a rifle. The wind is super important, the telltale signs and all that stuff. I've had points where I've stocked in on mule deer within my socks. With my boots, I couldn't feel the ground. I developed planter's fasciitis from doing it one time because I went so far and left my boots.
I didn't throw them in my pack. I was in the middle of the hunt. Even clicking the release that I have, I've blown an elk out on. Those little things like that are so important. Can you give me some advice? This isn't even for our readers. There are for all those years and traditionally, bow hunting and some of the animals that you guys have put on the ground.
Go back to how you finish a shot. You have to be very cognitive. You can't be automatic about anything. You can't take a step. You have to move slowly enough that you can stop that step in the middle of it. You can change speeds with your movements. I've done that where force and elk came up and bedded 40 yards down below me. There are twelve of them down there. The one I want to get to is move 20 yards in view of these things. I did it but I was moving slowly, an imperceptible movement. That is a pain in the butt.
Tom Clum Sr. : You have to be very cognitive when you’re bow hunting. You just can't be automatic about anything. You just can't take a step. You have to move slowly enough that you can stop that step in the middle of it or change speeds with your movements.
If I'm moving like this, I'm moving in front of you. If I'm in your peripheral, you're not even going to pick that movement up. I'm moving the slide to the side and super slow for Bobby. That foot has to move that slowly. You got to wiggle a little turf out of the way with your toe real slow so you can step down on something that's not going to pop or snap. It's patience and consciousness. Before you go, you better know any article closing that's going to scrape.
If a little branch or twig scrapes by it, it can't make noise. You have little snaps or things on your vinyl harness, any hard surface that might smack another hard surface, and two buttons clacking together. Plastic clips. You got to know all that before you even try because those will expose you at the moment. When you're being that slow and you collect something like that, that flashes to you and it got you zeroed in.
Paying attention to the wind is important.
It's the number one thing of bow hunting. It can change in a heartbeat.
That's mother nature. I sometimes find myself when I'm spot and stalking and I don't know if this is a good method or a waste of time, I’ll wait for something to get loud almost like a distraction, whether it's a bird chirping or the wind blowing leaves. I'll then start moving a little bit faster.
The high wind is your friend. It covers a whole lot of your noise. You are waiting for those guests to make a couple of steps real quick if you need to.
Not to get too personal here but are you a guy that’s started stripping down and shedding a pack or shoes?
I have a couple of times I've shed my boots and a pack. I snuck right down and it hurts elk like that. I took the pack and boots off. I was in my socks and got right down on the edge of this herd. The big bull walked in and it promptly was staring at me. I got caught in the open. I was trying to sneak down to the edge and shoot from the edge of the trees. He walked in the trees with me. There are little finger trees that went down right next to this herd. I got right down next to the herd and he walks into the trees with me. He's staring at me the whole time. I got caught at half-draw. He never picked me out. He decided to walk straight away. There was no shot.
Years later, I thought about what I should have done. I snuck down on a herd of elk that were crossing this bench. There was a herd bull and that big bull I got mounted in the shop. I snuck down to the edge of it. Cow goes by the calf. I was waiting. That bull popped up 10 yards to my right and walked by 5 yards. I thought, “I'll let him keep walking and shoot him away,” but he decided right in front of me to turn and walk straight away. I thought, “You got to be kidding me.” I did everything right. Luck was in my favor. Murphy was asleep. He's walking straight away. I got to make a noise to make him turn around.
I made this little high up-and-down pitch noise. I’m like, “Should I chirp like a cow? I always got cows chirping around. Shall I make a bark? No, that's an alarm calling. I’ll make a weird noise and hopefully, he'll turn around and see what it is.” I made this noise. I can't reproduce it because my testicles aren't in my stomach at the time. I made this little high-up-and-down noise. He turned sideways to see what that was and I shot him through the heart. That previous experience made me think, “I got to do something. I can't let them walk out of my life. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't.” I was bootless and packless. That's the only way I got down there that close.
How much do you guys call when you're elk hunting?
I don't want to be obnoxious. Our calls are more tactical. If we can locate a bull by a call, I'm not going to sit there and call him from 100 yards away. I'm going to move to it fast. Joel Turner talks about this stuff too.
It's like a location.
If you cow call and you get a bugle and a bugle stays put, it's probably a bull with other cows. If whatever call you're using and he's moving to you, you got a lone bull and a good chance of intercepting him. If it's staying put, it's probably a herd bowl. You don't want to be bugling a lot as you're approaching him. You d take the bulges out of it because he's going to push those cows away from you.
He's going to avoid confrontation.
He moves his cows away. Cow call and get him to bugles. You can keep them located as you get close. I'm going to get right up as close as I can to that herd, short bugle right into the herd, and make him have to chase me off because I'm too close. He can't push these cows away. He's got to come to confront me. That's effective. It's a depends type of thing.
It's a lot of animal behavior.
We do blind calls sometimes. I've got a bedding area. I have no way to know but I'm in a place with the right wind. We will throw out some cow calls and make it a little more aggressive. A lot of times, those bulls will drop out of their beds especially if you've let them bed for a couple of hours. They get a full belly when they lay down. They are not interested in much but let them be for a little bit. They'll then walk down, check you out, and take some animals like that or get shots like that. It happened with my wife. We climbed up 1,000 feet. We were checking all these bulls from the ridge line. We dropped over this one hall looking at the back of this lake at 9:00.
Right about when they were going to bed, I saw this single bull walk up in this timber. I'm sure he was bedded in that timber. I said, “We're going to wait until noon. We're going to go down there and call that bull in.” He'll be up, mill around a little bit, and feed a little bit by noon. She was chomping at the bed every twenty minutes like a little kid, “Let's go.” I said, “No, we're waiting until noon.” Long story short, we waited until noon and got down there. We got 75 yards below him with the right wind. We called him right in. It was cool.
Patience is a huge part of it, especially with spot and stalk.
One case is patience. One case is aggressiveness. Sometimes you have to push the envelope and see what you get away with because you got a fleeting opportunity. You got to be more aggressive and know when to do each. That takes a lot of mistakes to get there and know what to do. It's a calculated guess every time. Find out what works eventually and what doesn't work.
One case patience, one case aggressiveness. Sometimes you have to push the envelope and see what you can get away with because you have a fleeting opportunity.
How long have you been at this?
Since 1976.
That's incredible for you to be traditionally hunting. ‘69 is a good year.
I get teased that I should act my age and stuff like that. I want to do this elk hunt correctly, which takes some distance and elevation. I want to be able to do this for ten more years. My goal is to keep myself in shape.
You're in phenomenal shape. I had no idea you were that old. The last time you were in, you were 66. That's how long you've been here. Thank you so much for coming. It's been my pleasure. This has been awesome.
It's always my pleasure when I get to hang out with you.
-—
Donnie Vincent and I were talking about this, doing it in person, and waiting. Donnie and I went back and forth for six months about when he might have some availability when he wasn't in the Arctic or something like that. You and I have been going back to get you back in here to get you. I understand. I want to thank you and your family. Time is the most valuable thing that we have. Screw money, objects, a new car, or a new truck.
What's the best thing we can give other people?
This has made me understand that. Some of the guests that I'm having in, I know how busy I get and the platform that I have. If there's somebody that's a Stanley Cup or Super Bowl champion, they cancel on me. For him to come all from up North to come to hang out with us for a couple of hours was cool because he was like, “I appreciate you doing it this way and being persistent with contacting me and getting in here.” We have some awesome guests lined up in the future.
In person, he is much better. We've tried to do the virtual thing. I'll do it occasionally. I've done it with some wildland firefighter guys because their time is super crucial and they have some incredible stories to tell. If it's somebody where I can support the community or something like that, I'll go down the virtual road but this is so much better. Going back to it, time is valuable. It means a lot to me when I ask somebody to come on and they show up. You and I wouldn't have this same conversation in the archery shop.
We wouldn't have time.
Normally when I come in there, I don't even seek you out anymore. I don't want to bother you. You always come to me. I appreciate that and our friendship. I value time. I want to thank you and your family because this is cutting into family time. Going back to this video where he shot a grizzly through the eye, it's Tim Wells. You got to watch this if you haven't seen this before. This is pretty insane. Look at him.
He's a crazy man with skills that nobody else has.
Have you ever met Tim?
No.
I haven't either.
I've watched a lot of his video stuff.
This bear starts to charge him. For readers, he's running up on a brown bear.
The bear faces him. He's standing in the open.
He punches it right through the eye socket.
He was toast. He's in incredible danger.
I knew that I'd seen that somewhere and that's something that I would never do. If I did, I would have to bring three pairs of underwear. In my time in the backcountry, I ran into a lion when I was cow calling. I headed up a game trail and caught out of my peripheral. I've had some close encounters with bears but never anything super aggressive.
I've had a couple of bears falsely charge me and that lit me up pretty well. I was on a sow with a cub trying to step away. I was talking to it and stepping backward. There was a log behind me. I had to step between to get over. I was looking at her. I turned my back to the bear, stepped over this log, and looked back. She was running at me. This is going to be funny. I'm busting my chops here. Somebody said, “You bark at them like a dog.”I couldn't even come up with a woof.
I started screaming profanities at them. I've had some bluff charge or pop their jaws occasionally. I start yelling like, “Get the fuck out of here.”
That's what you're supposed to do. It's very disconcerting though. When I did that, she stopped. The little cub ran up to her side. She looks down at the cub, swept the cub, and then ran off. It’s like you're making all these reconciliations to what's going to happen while she was running at me. “I'm going to get batted around. I'm going to curl up. I got this pack on. I'm going to hunch up and cover my neck. I'm going to ball up and cover my innards from the front. I'm going to get bit up or batted around a little bit. It's going to happen.” It didn't work out that way. It was a massive relief. The adrenaline washes through it. You're shaking like crazy and stuff like that.
I could keep you in here for hours probably. You probably have so many stories.
I do.
I have a lot from many years of being out there.
I want it to be an interesting one if I'm going to tell it. I shortcut them and then I don't do it justice.
I love those funny moments.
I have a friend. He's passed but he's been a main hunting partner of mine for a long time. He goes, “Have you ever heard the expression, ‘Scared to pee out of you?’ That is true.” He was sitting in a tree stand over a bear bait. For some reason, there was a roadkill raccoon. He grabs this raccoon, takes the bear, and hangs it over the bait. For whatever reason, he did this to add to the bait.
The cubs show up first and the mom follows the babies. The cubs come in and the mom sits at the edge of the opening. She's looking around. She looks at her, sees that raccoon over her cubs, and goes nuts. She grabs that raccoon and thrashes it into a bunch of pieces. It was such a display of violence, speed, and aggression. He couldn't help but make this little sound like, “Shit.” The bear looked at him and she was in this giantly agitated space. She runs to the tree and comes up the tree. He stands up on the tree where the seat is. He steps up there holding the tree like, “I don’t know if I can get higher.”
The branches were orientated and the right way where the bear came up under the tree stand reaching up and trying to snag his leg. He was standing there like, “I'm going to get dragged out of this tree.” It was a giantly scary experience. She finally comes out of her agitation, goes down the tree, takes her cubs, and runs off. He immediately had to unzip and pee right from the tree. The whole story and the way he told it was funny.
I psych myself out. I went up solo because I couldn't go between my work schedule, the show, family members being injured that couldn't go on the hunt, and their work schedules. I went on a solo hunt in 2022 up in the flat tops. It was awesome. I would do it again.
There are a couple of people I know who would rather do it backpack alone and be out for ten days alone. I get it. They're like, “I can do whatever I want when I want.” You don't have to consider a partner-type of freedom. I did it once over a weekend. It didn't scare me. It was boring to me. If I go to a camp, I like it. You go hunt that drain island, that's fine with me because then I get to do what I want when I want and not worry about doing something the other guy doesn't like to do.
If I want to go slower, I'm worried about boring. If I want to go faster, I'm worried that he thinks I'm moving too fast. There's that stuff until you get to know a hunting partner real well and you read each other and go with the flow. Sometimes you need to cover and sometimes you need to slow down and be very alert.
Until you get to know a hunting partner really well, you just read each other and go with the flow.
It's almost like finding a maid. It's got to be somebody that you align with.
Also, has a similar knowledge base and attitudes or tactics. There are your best hunting partners but all alone and sitting there, I wasn't scared. Nothing was bad about it. I like telling those stories to my buddy when we got back and met at camp that night.
Some of the best conversations have either been here or in the backcountry.
How more intimate can you be with whomever you're with? When I say intimate, it’s revealing yourself to people when you're going through these experiences of maybe 10, 7, or 3 days. You're going to face adversity and have a lot of discomfort. How much better can you get to know a person in those circumstances and that type of togetherness? I had ten days backpack.
We had wool clothing back in the day. We didn't have these technical clothes. Wool is the best choice. It's quiet. It sheds water like a champ. We climbed up to the top of Glen Canyon. It was a steep hike. It was right when they were building the tunnel. This is back in the day. We spent 9 or 10 days back there up on top. We had some severe weather. Sleet storms are blowing through rain and snow. We get back to the tent. We had a little tent and there were two of us in there. It's soaked out muddy.
The mud up there is different too.
We always use synthetic bags because we always expect rain. He climbs his bag in muddy, wet wool clothes. I'm like, “What are you doing?” He goes, “It'll wick it right out. You should do that.” I'm like, “You're crazy.” I took off my wool clothes and climbed into my bag. I get up in the morning and slept comfortably.
My wool clothes are stiff as a board. I got to get in these frozen clothes. He climbs out of his bag. His wool clothes are dry as a bone. He flicked the frost off the top of his bag when he got up. When there's a big temperature differential and you have that stuff, the wetness goes away from heat through those types of materials.
On the second night, I come in soaked out. I climbed in the bag mud. It was cold. It was ten minutes and I started feeling dry inside my clothes. It wasn't an hour. I felt dry in the morning. There's a 1-inch layer of frost in the bag. You dust it off because it was all wicked out. There's a big temperature. If you go in a 55-degree wet bag, it's going to be pretty muggy all night. When it's 24 degrees out, that wicks away pretty fast. It was a lesson learned.
He ripped your book and that good hunting partner rips his book in half. In ten days, we had to stay. The winter was sleeting much sideways. There's nothing to do but wait it out. You're sitting there closer for a couple of days and nights. Get to know people. If you got the right partner and they’re easy to get along with, those are the ones you never forget. Those are the ones you treasure.
If you’ve got the right hunting partner that you get along with easily, those are the ones you never forget. Those are the ones you treasure.
It’s the bonds that you make too and the comradery.
It’s the thing you went through together. Also, the difficulty and discomfort of it. Those are my absolute favorites.
Even if you did go through something like that and it wasn't even a hunting experience, it's the same thing.
If you go through adversity with anybody, you bonded them.
Going on that solo hunt, I had some people pull in and camp right next to me. They were an awesome couple. Shout-out to Eric. They are Colorado people from that area who grew up there. They lived in Arkansas or something like that. They are super cool people. I ended up going out with them for a couple of days. I got to meet some people.
Eric's telling me the story. We would go our separate ways and hunt during the day. It was that camaraderie when I came back to the camp because I didn't spike out that much and wasn't going that deep. I was like, “I'll go back to camp.” I wasn't going more than 3 miles in case I got something down so I could get it out. These people were so nice. I ended up hunting one afternoon with them, which was super cool.
He was telling me a story. He grew up there. He is like, “I was in the back here. I turned around and had the sixth sense. I was sitting on this water.” He said he turned around and all he saw was a basketball size of mountain lion head sticking through the oak brush about 20 yards from him. He said, “I had nothing but my bow. I instantly grabbed an arrow in the ready position. The only thing I could think of is I'm going to stab my arrow through this lion as it's on me.” I'm sorry, Eric if I'm butchering your story.
The next day I go out. He told me this story in the camp that night. I'm cow calling going up this trail. I was in the elk every day that was up there. It was awesome. It was a great time. I wasn't that far from base camp. I get up there. It's like first light. I see this tail and everything take off. I'm pretty sure it was a lion. If not, it was some big cat. Instantly, this starts running through my head. It was dark and dusk when I see this. It happens. There's elk bugling around.
I'm sure that that lion was in there doing the same thing that I was doing, trying to hunt. I didn't see anybody else on the trail that day. I didn't run into any other hunters the entire day. It was awesome. I was in the elk all day. It was incredible. I'm walking back. That's probably only the third lion that I've seen in the wild. I caught a glimpse of it. That story's going through my head. I'm walking back to camp by myself with a headlamp. There's no moon that night. It is dark. I swear to God, I felt something grab the back of my pants. I turned around and screamed like a girl.
You made a sound like a woman.
I was a 40-year-old man. Luckily, I didn't pee my pants or anything. Instantly, I started laughing at myself because I'm thinking, “You dumb ass. If it was a lion, it would've been on my shoulders, not on my pants.” It was funny how you psych yourself out. I still laugh about that. I busted up laughing in the dark by myself 3 miles from camp at that point. Those little moments like that are awesome. There are so many stories.
There are so many things you get to see that never get to see otherwise. It would be a predator-prey incident.
Even if you're not successful in hunting.
There's always something you see because you're there. You see a predator take down another small animal, sit there, kill it, and eat it. City people never get to see a normal thing that happens every day and hour.
Have you ever had a fox follow you?
No, I've had bears follow me.
I've had bears follow me too. I had some fox that decided we were going to be buddies for the afternoon.
Somebody fed it or something at one time.
It was a cool experience but people shouldn't feed wildlife. We have that problem around here. It's pretty bad. People move into the area and they don't know. The next thing you know, you are creating problems. A 200-inch fox is standing at your sliding glass door looking for whatever.
I had a lady come into the shop to buy mountain lion scent because she started feeding the raccoons in the green belt behind her. She had about thirteen raccoons.
That's a problem. Those things are hilarious. Have you ever seen the montage videos of them? Dunkin’ Donuts are in the ceiling tiles and they’re reaching down and grabbing donuts.
I got amazing critters there. Tommy was helping this guy in Wisconsin move his haystack and there was a nest in there with baby raccoons. He takes one home. I'm like, “Don't you do that.” He's getting a bottle to feed it with. I’m like, “You're going to get attached to that thing and then have to get rid of it and be all bummed out.” He is like, “I'm fine. I’m going to raise this thing.” He gets a cage for it. At first, he was a mean little shit. He gets this big thick glove on and he's got the bottle. This thing chomps on that glove.
He finally gets a nipple in his mouth and then it finally got to see that you were feeding it. It got friendly and then it would climb on your shoulders and down your arms. He was this cool little critter. You put him in his cage and they're so crafty. They get in and will freaking unlock the cage because they're smart. He's so cool. We were going somewhere and we kept him in the back of the pickup truck. The thing slid the window open and jumped out. They named him Lecter because he's so mean at first. The only one who was sad was me. I was like, “I don't know where Lecter is. Is he going to make it? He is going to have to suffer and starve again.” The only one bummed was me. He’s like, “He'll be fine.”
What do you get coming up with? You always have some event or something like that going on down at the shop. We haven't even plugged the shop yet or any of the amazing stuff that you do.
The shop is all hands on deck. We do close to 30% to 40% of our yearly gross in July and August 2023. We're finishing up. We are getting everybody ready and then we got August 2023 to come. We have seasons. With the hunters, that's July and August. They're getting ready to go in September. September is fairly steady and then October drops off. We'll start getting some leagues going, a lot more instruction, and shift gears as far as the shop goes. There's not much we can plan because we're so busy. I already did put a red stag hunt on the books with the guy. I got that to look forward to.
You'll have to come back and tell us about that.
Those are neat experiences culturally and politically. Seeing the differences in the countries, how they do things, and how we do things is interesting enough.
Just seeing the differences between the countries and how they do things and how we do things is interesting enough.
It's important. I wish more people would experience that. I'm fortunate in the career that I've had that I've got to go around the world and go to some third-world countries and stuff like that. It's humbling.
There are some things we do better like our freedoms. That's why I want to hang onto them. They don't have our freedoms in some ways. We're a contentious bunch compared to the rest of them. We're more opinionated and fired up.
We think our opinion matters.
We may be a little more arrogant about it. Maybe that's true. Some of us for sure but it was interesting. There have been a couple of guys out of state checking my availability to go do a shooting clinic. I do that. They can get 1 day or 2 with a dozen guys each day. I’ll do a day-long clinic, go out, and teach archery for a day.
You have a lot of people that travel in for coaching.
I've gotten some notaries in this niche. Virtually every week, somebody's coming and flying in for lessons. I had a great experience with Christophe and Barbara. They came from Switzerland. The guy had bought my online course and he loved it. He watched anything I have to do with YouTube or this show, I'm sure he’ll read it. This couple came and said, “I want lessons from Tom. We're going to do a vacation.” They flew in and booked two days with me. They were traveling to Colorado.
They're nice people. I’m like, “You come to our house and stay.” They did. The guy is a master word carver. He waited a couple of days until he found out that he liked me and he gave me this carving of a brown bear with a salmon in its mouth. That was hand carved. It's gorgeous. It's one of the cooler gifts I've ever gotten. We got to know those folks.
We've got invites to Switzerland. He's going to see if we can do a clinic out there. He might pay for the plane fare. We met a wonderful couple with kids that are graduating high school at an age where they could come on their own. Here we have these friends from Switzerland, these wonderful people. I got to ask all the questions about the country, their government, their healthcare, and how they live.
That's an incredible place to visit.
I wanted to do that.
You should go.
They invited us like, “You come to our place. We want to be as welcoming to you as you have been to us.” That's on the docket. If I didn't do what I do, I wouldn't have this friendship with these people from the other side of the world. It’s two different places. I had true friends, people I call friends far away and have a relationship that we'll make contact with from time to time.
You're such an incredible coach with the process and the approach that you take with it. You have changed the archery game for me firsthand into something incredible. It was a struggle for me to relearn that process. I don't know if you remember what we went through but thank you.
It's not uncommon. Especially for people that didn't get instructed correctly from the first, you build these motor programs and these habits or the way your mind works through a shot. You build automatic functions. You have to sooner or later correct consciously override. That's a battle everybody faces. I give people the tools to fight this battle and win. There are many skirmishes along the way. You have failures and successes in these individual skirmishes as you're shooting. Those are analogies that maybe non-archers wouldn't understand.
You have the inability to hang onto the string because you have what's called target panic and automatic functions. When your brain sees aim, if you don't let go and don't have any control over letting go, trying to hang onto the string and aiming the bow is a storm in your brain. First of all, that storm will pass if you wait long enough. It's only going to take 3, 4, or 5 seconds. We always shoot inside that storm because we don't think that storm will ever end. It's such an anxiety-filled moment when you have target panic. We got to get them to weather the storm first.
Once I do, and this is my testament, my confidence level in archery is 100 times.
You fought that battle and weathered enough storms to do the conscious movement. You then had success. You won that skirmish. In maybe the next shot, you won that battle again. In the next shot, you punched out like, “I lost control of my movements in the shot. Next one.” What we're looking for over time is the percentage of those individual battles for each shot to get higher and higher. It's a process. Sooner or later, if you're cognitively working on your shot, it's what you do. To that point, you have confidence.
Confidence itself means consciousness. You don't wonder how your shot is going to go. You know exactly how to make a great shot and that's what you do. When you screw up, you go, “On this next one, I'm going to press a little longer so I'm going to move a little slower.” You correct it right the next shot. Your slumps don't last but 1 shot or 3. You didn't have the tools to do that. I didn't make you a good shooter. You made yourself a good shooter. I gave you the information to do it with. I hear guys say, “You built that archer.” “I didn't build any archer. They built it. They did the hard work. I gave them the information. That's my skillset.
It's for anybody that wants to be good at archery, whether it's traditional or what you coach me on the compound side, right down to the equipment. The other thing I want to bring up is your broadheads are amazing. They're the best-tuning broadhead I've ever had, the crazy three-blade Cutthroat. I've killed three animals with them.
They're incredibly durable. They're machined out of one piece of steel. They're premium heads. They're expensive but they're not as expensive as other ones because we don't take the big profit margins like other people do. There are design features in those things. They can fly off a high-speed compound bow. Originally, we thought our market would be traditional only but we found that the design features worked at high-speed setups. We have single 2 and 3 blades in all different weights.
It's a question to the customer, “What are you shooting? What are your needs? Do you need penetration? Do you need more damage? We have 1.5 inches wide down. If you're shooting enough arrow weight and poundage of the bow, you can use this wider cut because you're interested in more damage. Penetration is an issue. You're a big dude. You shoot a heavy-weight bow and heavy arrows. You can go to a bigger, wider broadhead.”
If you’re a shorter person with lighter draw weights, we're going to go to that narrow tube blade and guarantee the penetration to make that a humane kill on an animal. The boys have done an unbelievable job designing and having these heads produced. It's been an add to the business and an interesting little side venture to our business but it's integral to our business.
If you're a hunter looking for broadheads, I strongly recommend that you check out the Cutthroat.
We didn't want to make it grizzly. Our logo is a cutthroat trout. That's what born the name of it but it went with a broadhead too.
The one thing that I want to recommend to you, which is super special about your shop, is you aren't just pushing a product. You have multiple products in the Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear online, a vast array of bow builders or boyers. There's a multitude of stuff but you are intuitive to ask the individual that comes in or me personally like “What do you want to do?” That's where you start.
“What are you interested in? What bow are you interested in?” You're going to get instructions. You're going to right from the beginning as part of the process. If you end up buying a bow, you were well served. I don't care. The golden rule is, “Treat people like you want to be treated.” It is how we want to run our business. Be a good person. It's a cool way to live. Be righteous. It's a fun, non-anxious way to live. It happens to be good for business.
Treating people like you want to be treated is how you want to run your business. Be a good person. It's a really cool way to live.
The people we hire and bring into our team are all the types of people that are good communicators that like to help people and are knowledgeable or will give them knowledge on the job training. They're going to start with a base knowledge for sure. They're going to be an archer. We hire from our customer base. Everybody that I hang out with, my peers that I go shoot with, my personal friends, or that are in our shop and workforce were people that walked in the door one day. We got to know them and their nature over time. There was an opportunity when they needed a job and wanted to do what we had available. Everybody at the shop is like that. Bobby Marshall is a guy who walked in the door one day. I got to know him and we made a friendship. What a cool way to live.
I commend you for doing that. Shout-out to all the people that work down there and have helped me. I've never had a bad experience at Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear. It's unheard of for some bow shops and with everybody, including Colt, Danny, Alex, Jerry, Tracy, and Kelly. All of you guys are amazing. When I go to Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear, I know that I need to block out one hour because I'm going to have some conversations when I go in there. It's like going in to see old buddies or something.
What we want to do most like with our social media, which can be harmful or an asset, is give information. My rules are interesting but mostly informational because that's easy. It's not self-promoting. I can give you some information and it will help you. I like to do that. That's fun. That's what we like to do as far as our content goes. That's where we aim at most of it. We don't have much in marketing.
You don't need it. You guys are doing it right.
That's the way it's comfortable. Self-promotion is not in our wheelhouse whatsoever. That's why we can't get Danny to say, “You should be our poster boy.” He is like, “I do what I do for me.”I get with my family. I said, “Let’s share a little bit of it because people need to know what you do.”
Danny, I hope you share it here if you're reading. Let's hang out. It's laid back. Tom, this has been awesome. I want to be respectful of your time. You're welcome back here anytime and in any way that we can help you. I got to get back down there for some of the river-deep stuff. Shout out to those guys. They're amazing. You turned me on to them. That's a great experience. It makes you appreciate life a little bit more and those little things like that. You are super awesome. If you guys ever need any help, I'd be glad to help you with anything. You've been a friend. Thank you for your time.
My pleasure. I appreciate it. Our website is RMSGear.com.My online courses are at ShootSolid.com. It is Solid Archer Mechanics. If you don't have a coach near you, we've got a seven-hour detailed elite level. This is more pointed at recurve stuff. I've got one launching on the metal management shot. We don't need clickers. We can have an integral shot. It's a high-level metal.
You have a ton of products to help archers.
My Instagram is @Tom_Clum_Sr, @RMSGear, and my Facebook. We do have social media presence if you want to check out some of the informational stuff we put out. We have a SOLID Archery Mechanics YouTube channel that we're going to be loading a lot more informational stuff out. That has some good stuff on it already.
Do you have some 3D shoots and stuff?
We sponsor the 3D shoot every Thursday and a club shoot. Anybody can come to it. We shoot a 3D score.
There's a little bit of food at the end.
We barbecue hotdogs and burgers at the end. You can get a $5 meal. We don't do that to make money. We pay for the food. We move the stakes every week. We have challenging shots and you keep score like in the big divisions like the compound recurve. It’s best 3 out of 4 scores. The first place gets $100. The second place gets $75. The middle score gets $100. The second to the middle gets $75. The second to the last total score gets $50. Everybody's got a chance. We make it fun. It's a club shoot. It's meant to meet people and new hunting partners. People in archery are awesome. We'll do that every summer.
You do some amazing stuff. Go and check them out. Support these guys if you're in Colorado. Tom, thank you for being awesome and a good friend.
Thank you. I appreciate it.
Everybody, thanks for reading.
Important Links
Episode 13 – Past Episode w/ Tom Clum Sr.
The Intimate Weapon – YouTube
@BenMaher73 – Instagram
Donnie Vincent – Past Episode
@Tom_Clum_Sr – Instagram
@RMSGear – Instagram
Facebook –Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear
SOLID Archery Mechanics – YouTube