#141 Ben Davis - Veteran’s Outdoor Advocacy Group
Ben Davis - Executive Director of the Veteran’s Outdoor Advocacy Group. He served nine years as a SEAL where completed three deployments and earned an MBA from William and Mary. Since serving, Ben has participated and volunteered in numerous climbing and mountaineering endeavors where he witnessed firsthand the benefits of outdoor recreation therapy. Currently residing in Golden, CO, Ben is a dedicated advocate of VOAG’s mission and passionate about exposing Veterans to the power of the outdoors. He also authors The TRANSITION, a Substack focused on Veteran mental health and all things “life after the Global War on Terror.” Tune in as Ben Davis joins Bobby Marshall in the studio to discuss outdoor therapy, contention nature, mental health, transition, hunting, archery, Colorado, outdoor life, and much more. Please subscribe or like us on social media platforms for updates on shows, events, and episode drops. www.TheMountainSidePodcast.com
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Ben Davis - Veteran’s Outdoor Advocacy Group
In this episode, joining us is Ben Davis. He's the Executive Director of the Veterans Outdoor Advocacy Group, lobbying and raising awareness in Washington and across the United States for the effectiveness of outdoor therapy in healing combat veterans. Whether it's mentally or physically, this is a great alternative and an incredible organization that's doing some extraordinary things. I enjoyed having Ben, sitting down, and discussing what they're doing at VOAG to help some amazing men and women who have served our country.
Ben is also a veteran himself. After serving in the SEAL teams and multiple deployments, Ben's connection with the outdoors is something special, whether it's through mountaineering, mountain biking, or fly fishing. I enjoyed having him, sitting down, and getting to know him during this episode. I hope that you enjoy our conversation.
Ben, I've been on a Maryland Manson deep dive since Chris’ fight that we both attended ringside.
Is that the music that was playing when he came out? I wouldn't even know.
It was a Johnny Cash cover but it was by Marilyn Manson.
I've heard that.
It was God's Gonna Cut You Down. What a fitting song. It was badass. I didn't put it together until we had him on the show.
That was a wild experience. I visualized before I went what it would be like. It was nothing like that.
You should have been to the one prior to that. Conor McGregor showed up and Chris fought in one of the undercard fights. He was still on the main card. It was Mike Perry and Luke Rockhold. Chris had a first-round knockout so that was cool. The turnout wasn't exactly what we wanted it to be for Chris. Shout out to the Parkers Platoon. What an awesome family organization and group of people. Those guys are some of the most selfless individuals that I know personally. I love those guys.
Francesca is like a mother to the community here in Denver. It's amazing.
She’s a no-nonsense woman. She is a boss. I love her.
In the short time I've known them, they've been incredibly generous and willing to help us and everyone. It's awesome and cool. It's great to meet you, guys. That fight was quite an experience. I've never been to a UFC fight or a boxing match. That was my first thing and we were 10 feet from the ropes. It was wild.
It’s going to be hard to beat that. I've become a Bare Knuckle fan after going to that first fight and watching Chris. That’s the next level of boxing. It’s not that I don't want to watch boxing but I don't care for all the antics, BS, and boxing commissions. There are so many different belts and titles.
Unless you know the scoring well or how to keep score, it can be pretty anti-climatic until the final rounds. I'm so ignorant of it all. I'm like, “When the other guy falls, the other guy wins.” In reality, there are all kinds of points and stuff. I don't understand any of it.
The scoring sometimes, I don't think is right either. I don't think the scoring the night of Chris's fight was right either.
It was split, right?
Yeah, and I didn't know until I had him on the show. It was a split decision. I feel like he won some of the later rounds but it was pretty evenly matched the whole way through. I can see the split decision but I didn't know in Bare Knuckle there's an option to go to a sixth round. They didn't send it to a sixth round. Why wouldn't you if it's a split decision? It’s strange.
Maybe if it's 3:2, they can do one more round. You don't know if you won the round after the round. They don't tell you until the end.
They'll call it out or the judges won't.
Have you been to a bunch of UFC fights?
What's crazy is I have been to some MMA fights. I've been to the Ice Wars with the Parkers too. That was a wild experience. I did a UFC thing with Monster but I was working on the event. As a patron, I haven't been to UFC. It’s pretty incredible. I have some serious connections with the UFC. A company that I used freelance for and worked for full-time at one point in my life built all the octagons. One of my good friends is the sales guy for the UFC for the octagons. He said, “Anytime you want tickets to a fight, hit me up.”
I hit him up for the Dustin Poirier and Gaethje fight. I hit him up a few days before it happened because my schedule's been so crazy. I don't know if I'm coming and going sometimes or all the time. I was like, “I got the weekend off. The family's good with it. I'm going to roll to Salt Lake.” I went to go punch that ticket and they were like, “We’re sorry. We have nothing available but please hit us up later.” It's on my list. I’m watching the fights that they're starting to put out. Maybe we'll go to one.
There's a team guy that I served with. I didn't know him well. I knew who he was but Richie knew him well. He signed with the UFC. His name is Bobby Ferguson.
I've seen him fight.
He was on team four with me.
He's in the UFC, right?
He had a ton of fights before that but he's done 1 or 2 UFC fights.
Do you know how he came up? Did he come up through the contender series?
I don't. Richie would know.
You're talking about Richie who was with us, right?
Yeah.
Shout out to Richie. He’s so good.
When he was around, he was skilled at jiu-jitsu. That’s one of the things that we would get into because a lot of the other stuff is not that practical. If you become a master boxer or kickboxer, what are you going to do with it?
It’s that ground fighting.
They’ll make sure that we will invest some time in that because if someone puts their hands on you, you want to be able to control them. If guys were somewhat competent at jiu-jitsu, I remember people saying, “You can go roll with Bobby. He'll kill you.” I don't know if he was doing MMA back then but he is this time.
If someone puts their hands on you, you want to be able to control them.
One of my goals in life is to have both my daughters be purple belts before they start dating. If they can achieve that, by the time they're fifteen, I might let them go on a date with a dude. If you're in a vulnerable situation, a lot of jiu-jitsu training is on your back. In a rape situation, and God forbid that were to happen, that's probably the best self-defense mechanism against an attack like that. If it comes to edge weapons or something, and you can probably attest to this, you probably don't want to be doing much jiu-jitsu.
I wouldn't. I was on the lower end of mixed martial arts know-how, for sure. I would get a little into jiu-jitsu. I respected it. It’s humbling. I've wrestled all through high school, even in middle school. I would do jiu-jitsu and go to a heart rate of 175. I would think, “This is a wrestling match.” For wrestlers, that's like Zone 5 cardio. In jiu-jitsu, these guys would lie there and then in ten seconds, I'd be tapping. After all those years of wrestling, I was like, “That's incredible with how calm and in control these guys can stay.”
A lot of the guys that I roll against are high. Weed is something that does not work well for me, especially going into the jiu-jitsu situation. I've never tried but I don't know.
I need to take a nap on the mat or something.
I've been pretty dormant. September 2023 has been crazy. I went to San Francisco at the beginning of the first two weeks. I then flew straight home from San Francisco and went up elk hunting for 5 or 6 days. That was on the Western Slope. I came out and went to the fight with you guys. I turned around and coached the little league football game, and then went straight back to the wilderness for 4 or 5 days. I've taken about 5 or 6 weeks off but it's awesome.
I have this awesome gym up here. There are some savages in there. The guy that runs it, Dave Roberts, shout-out, is a UFC vet from way back when. I don't even know if they were weight classes back then when he was fighting. He's a jiu-jitsu black belt. They have a couple of different locations up here. It's affiliated with the Brazilian Top Team so it's an affiliated gym.
He's an awesome coach, professor, or whatever you guys want to call him. I don't know what it's technically called. I'm still a white belt at it because I come in periodically. I was fortunate enough to reach out to them because he is a friend and has been on the show. They have an awesome nonprofit too. They're doing some good stuff or trying to get off the ground to do some good stuff.
They are an entire family that solely believes in jiu-jitsu and what it can do to improve your life cognitively with self-confidence and self-defense. It’s women's self-defense, kids' self-defense, and anti-bullying. They have this whole program where if you're a bully in school, the principal can give you a free pass to their jiu-jitsu gym so you can be humbled. They're doing a lot of good stuff for the community.
Long story short, I reached out to them and was like, “I can't come to any of the evening classes because my kids are running around.” You have young kids. You know what it's like. I was like, “If you started a lunch class 1 to 2 days a week, I can take a lunch break anytime,” and I haven't been in a month. I'm planning to go back soon.
I always felt like if there were ten days in the week or something, jiu-jitsu is something that I would take on. You've got young kids. I get out with these guys for a Wednesday night mountain bike ride.
You have to pick and choose your hobbies.
There's not enough time to do all the activities that I want to do already.
You should do it though. I'm sure there's a gym close to you, or come up and roll with us. There are a lot of police officers that are coming in on a lunch class, which is cool. There are some great organizations out there too. I forget Mitch's last name who owns MASF Supplements. He's a former SEAL.
I know who he is.
He started a non-profit, Adopt a Cop BJJ. If you're in law enforcement, they will sponsor you up to a blue belt, which is a few years of jiu-jitsu training. That's what his non-profit's doing. It’s cool. You can probably attest to this being younger and coming from a wrestling and a football background and high-intensity careers.
Mine was in rock and roll. Concussion grenades going off at the beginning of the show were awesome every night for two years. I miss that little bit of edge or that adrenaline rush. I get a little bit of that in jiu-jitsu but not only that, I get a little bit of peace. It's some space that you can go into and it's okay to be aggressive. It's also humbling because I've had guys your size that will wreck me.
It's one of the most humbling things I've ever participated in. I get it. It's consistent with anything that you can't think about the rest of your life for a couple of minutes. I've found it's pretty therapeutic for guys. Jiu-jitsu is one of those. You're not going to be aggressive in your day-to-day. Where someone is going to be physically aggressive and it’s appropriate in their Monday through Fridays is not going to happen.
I've had moments where I’ve left jiu-jitsu class and I’m pulling out of the parking lot here. I had some high school kids zip around me in my truck and start flipping me off and shit. I was at peace. I got it out for the day. It’s not that I would ever do anything like that but in my younger days, I didn't like being disrespected. I learned some lessons the hard way. How many kids do you have?
Two girls. It's a lot of fun.
You're still in the weeds. You're still in that stage where you might not be getting all the sleep you need.
It's on every day.
I have a word of advice for parents who are in that stage and I talked about this on the last episode. We did a deep dive on parenting for four hours. It was crazy but good, especially with the background that Ben had. It would relate to deployment a little bit too. You're not always in your family's life. When you come home, you have to reintegrate and not bring some of those practices that you get from hanging a rock and roll show or coming back from a wildland fire. I'm sure deployment is the same way. You're around the boys and this alpha mentality a little bit. That doesn't fit into a family life very well. Even when you think you're not doing it, sometimes you have to catch yourself. We talked a lot about that.
The biggest thing that I've realized in having my third kid was it was unplanned. The first two, I wanted them to grow up so fast. I was like, “When are they going to be out of diapers? When can they go on a mountain bike ride with me? When can they walk? When can we take them someplace like a sporting event?” I yearned for that moment and I let their adolescence pass me by. There's so much that happens in those early stages that you don't ever get back. The older they get, the less they want to hang out with you. I'm sure you're already seeing that in your four-year-old. You have to enjoy it for what it comes but it's not easy though.
We don't plan on having any more so it's like, “That's it.” When she's done with X, Y, or Z, it’s like, “That's it forever. We're not going to do it anymore.” It's sad but that's cool. Are they getting to be able to do those mountain bike rides and everything with you?
Yeah. When I say picking and choosing your hobbies, I want them to do jiu-jitsu and none of them have time to go do that. I want to go fly fishing with my son. Luckily, he enjoys that. They start molding themselves into other people. My son has started playing chess at a high level. One of his goals is to be a state champion.
I wish I never taught him this game but he's so good at it that I can't even plan. His dad has had a lot of CTE in his past and has never focused on chess and stuff. It's been something where it’s picking and choosing your hobbies. My son loves archery. One of my daughters loves archery. I feel so fortunate. That's something that we can do together. You also have to chase their dreams. You don't want to stifle those at all.
You wanted your kids to grow up so they could go on mountain bike rides with you.
I bought them badass mountain bikes so we could go do that. I'm no expert mountain biker. I would be thoroughly embarrassed to go mountain biking with you. I'm sure you're a bomber. I'm a big dude. I fall hard. My version of a mountain bike ride is a little bit different but even then, I bought them these two badass mountain bikes that are collecting dust in the garage. There’s no time. My daughter has dance and ballet. My son is playing football. You'll find once they start getting into these sports, the requirements and the amount of focus that you need to put on it, it’s hard to do anything.
The involvement that kids' sports can have is amazing.
It's crazy. I feel like football's almost the least but we've taken it to that level fortunately knowing some of our mutual friends like Derek Wolfe, the guys that train down at Landow, and some of the fighters that we’ve had in. Shout out to Eric Tilley. He's a strength and conditioning coach down at Landow. He has invited my son down there to train but that's in Dove Valley. It's a ride and a commitment but he’s getting that training where it's stuff that I can't teach him. I'm learning from it too. It's been cool. It's almost like you learn something new through your kids.
Are the protocols around brain health changing at all for that age?
It has changed so much. I got suckered into coaching. I had a hard time with it at first because everything I was taught in football was not acceptable anymore. They don't even warm up the same way. They're not doing a bunch of the dynamic. I still make them do up-downs but it has changed. In my opinion, it has gotten softer but it has gotten safer on the CTE side and concussion protocols.
There's even a concussion protocol for kids at their age. If they show any signs or symptoms of a concussion during a game, I believe the parents have to sign a contract or an NDA that they will seek out a doctor's opinion or professional opinion. They have to be sat for eight days and then be reevaluated by a doctor before they can even come back. It's something that the coaches have to enforce. If the kid hasn't met that protocol by the eighth day, they still can't play. They have to seek medical help whether they have health insurance or not. It is one of the cheaper sports to get into and it's a dying sport, unfortunately.
That's tough. The speed at which brain health and stuff is coming out, who knows? Even with what we know, we can be 100% confident but then in more years, they'll be like, “This is bad for you. You should wear helmets like this and all this stuff.” They’re kids.
It's cool though. They've come up with some awesome techniques on the physical side of it from linemen and stuff. Some blocking skills are super effective. It’s almost jiu-jitsu moves. There are some body positioning. There's a little bit of wrestling in it too. An example is how you souffle somebody is you have to lift with your hips, your legs, and everything. That's what they're teaching. You used to start with your face mask or helmet.
I remember Pee Wee. It was offense on this side and defense on this side, and then you would go in line and smash each other.
There's a lot of teaching them to lead with their shoulder. Once I got suckered into this, they were like, “You got to get your certification online,” which is a 40-hour certification. It might not have been 40 hours. It probably took me 40 hours. You have to pass all these tests. Over half of it was concussion protocol and how to identify it and stuff. I thought it was good.
I know some people who have had serious brain trauma. I have a couple of my friends that were former operators. They were never wounded in combat but it's from breaching doors. One of them was a breacher. He had some serious brain stuff happen. He's an incredible human being and a great wrestling coach. When I first met him, he had to walk with a cane but as soon as he stepped on the mat, he didn't need his cane. This guy is a badass.
Shout out to Luke. I won't even bring up his last name. Luke's a great individual. Through medicine, some alternative medicines, and stuff, it has helped him come out of it but still, he has seizures. It's been a long road. This is somebody who's performed at some of the highest levels in military operations and was never injured. He always had successful missions. I can't speak for him but it's weird. There are repercussions that don't come up until post-care or something like that. You can probably get into this.
Your brain doesn't know if you're on a real-life target in Iraq or at a training range. You stand too close and the blast is built a little too big or whatever the case may be. There are guys that run breaching schools. They are putting guys through breaching courses. That's their job in the military. They are doing what an operator would get in a four-week course. They're running 24-week courses. After a 3 or 4-year period, that's a lot of blasts. Maybe one isn't so bad for you but do we know what a couple of hundred might do?
It's a problem because a lot of guys that aren't injured on real-world missions on the battlefield, it's hard for them to say, “I don't feel so good,” or to stand up and say, “I’m not firing on all cylinders.” There are other guys around the team who were injured in combat. You're not going to want to raise your hand to get medical attention. You’re like, “What do you mean? It was just training.”
It even happens at the Pee Wee football level. I've seen it with kids. They’re like, “Coach, I'm good.” I’m like, “Are you?” When you're around an alpha mentality or I don't care what it is, the expectation is physical. The last thing you want to do is let down a teammate.
Sometimes, the minutes following a concussion aren't so intense. You get your bell rung and you stand up. Maybe you got your wrist smashed in too and you're like, “My wrist is killing me.” People are like, “Do you feel all right?” You're like, “I'm fine” It’s 48 hours later when you wake up and you're like, “I don't even remember driving home last night.” You've got all these symptoms but it's not necessarily going to be there on the football field after the play and you’re like, “I had a concussion.” The guys are going to be like, “He's got adrenaline.” He's like, “I'm fine,” but he's not fine. It's scary.
There’s a lot more awareness about it. I've lost a couple of friends or a friend to suicide and they attributed it to that. There are a lot of NFL players that have that. Junior Seau is a prime example. He is a high-level individual. Take care of your brain and back. Those are the two main things. If you can take care of those, you're doing pretty good. I don't think I took care of mine in my younger years. This time, I'm super conscious about it.
Me too.
There are some crazy studies coming out. I learned this from Strahan who was in. Not to even go down this path but he's a big proponent of using psilocybin for some healing stuff. He was telling me that there are some studies out there that they're doing that they think that psilocybin specifically, even in small doses, might rebuild brain neuroplasticity, which is your learning stuff. Your brain has more plasticity from the ages of 1 to 5 than it does at any time in its life. From 5 to about 15, it slowly starts to drop off and diminish. It's almost like a supplement, something that can rebuild it.
Probably not even a week goes by when I hear of a veteran who's microdosing psilocybin and having great results from them.
If it helps somebody, it’s so much better, in my opinion. This is my perspective. I don't know. I'm not a medical doctor or anything like that. I'm thinking out loud. I would take that approach over SSRIs or some of the other medication that is force-fed to people. It's like, “I'm not feeling so good. I'm feeling depressed.” If you go see your normal physician, they're going to be like, “Here's the script for fucking whatever.”
That was the motion of it for a long time throughout most of the global war on terror. Luckily, that conversation is starting to change. Maybe we don't rule out SSRIs. There are certain circumstances where pharmaceuticals are going to help brain chemistry.
If you have psychosis or something, going on a mushroom trip is probably not the best idea.
The point is that no one's circumstances are going to be the same across the board. No one treatment is going to be the same for every single person.
No one's circumstances are going to be the same across the board. No one treatment is going to be the same for every single person.
We can see that in people's diets. I know what I've done diet-wise and what it does to me cognitively. I am sharper when it comes to jiu-jitsu, more physically aggressive, and on a higher cognitive function if I'm fasted, which is wild. Let's say a few years back. I was 330 pounds. I was a big boy. It was the biggest I've ever been in my life. The career that I came out of was you were on your feet for twenty hours a day. If you were on a stadium gig or something, you were walking 20 or 30 miles a day sometimes in the stadiums. It's crazy. We're not back there slamming Jack Daniel’s and partying with chicks. There's some hard work involved.
Heavily, a lot of what I do is working remotely. It's on the computer so my eyesight's gone to shit. It's not as physical because I'm more in a managerial role. The way that the world has gone corporately even, everything is done from email, computers, and screen shares. Even post-pandemic, a lot of these companies aren't even having people back, which in turn, you could argue has made some people's lives better. They're finding time to work out because they're at home. Maybe they're working out while they're supposed to be in a Zoom meeting.
More power to them. If you can multitask and do that, there are times when I cognitively go and work on the show or take notes but I'm in the gym. That's when I find I'm the most productive. It is when I'm doing two things at once. If I can't figure something out, the best thing for me to do is to get out and go for a hike.
The way that the world's evolved is probably a big reason why there's an obesity epidemic. I fell right into that. I'm a pretty active guy. I go to jiu-jitsu. Some of it is genetics too. I must have a slow metabolism or something. You factor in anything that you buy off the shelf, including pre-packaged steaks from the supermarket that have some sort of preservative, chemical wash, or dye to make them look red. Cutting all that out of my diet is what I attribute most of my weight loss.
I don't think my genetics can handle all the preservatives and pre-processed food. What's crazy is vegetables that you buy from the grocery store that are supposed to be some of the healthiest things that you can eat, like greens and all this stuff, look at what's sprayed on them to make them last for two weeks. There are all kinds of underlying shit that’s in them.
I've been into this topic. What I found frustrating is if you get behind a theory and a plan, you can find anyone. You can find someone online in the podcast world who's usually a medical doctor who reinforces that. You can then go find another medical doctor on the other side of the spectrum. You don't have to go read 100 studies.
You have to subscribe to a diet. Mostly, what I'm doing is carnivore but I don't tout that I'm doing carnivore all the time.
People are going to be like, “What are you talking about?” You can find medical doctors who explain how carnivore works and then medical doctors who are vegan or plant-based. They'll have the same amount of studies like, “I graduated from Stanford,” and this and that. They're all credible. At the end of the day, it's like, “Someone tell me what's right.”
It's a rollercoaster ride too. What's worse for you than anything is going on in these radical crash diets. It’s like, “I'm a vegan.” You do all that and then you're missing out on all these nutrients. When you reintroduce it, your body craves it so much. It holds onto it all. It’s the same thing with me. I would imagine if I went back to eating anything that had high amounts of sugar in it, I’m sure I would balloon right back up, and probably even worse. That's the problem. If you can't find something that you can physically and mentally have the discipline to stick to, it is the hardest part.
That's my problem.
I'm more proud of myself mentally than what I achieved even with the weight loss. I lost 70 pounds. I will disclaimer for sure. I know for a fact from doing body scans, a majority of that was muscle mass. Your body will start to eat muscle mass over fat, and I don't know why, unless you're lifting heavy shit constantly.
If you lose 70 pounds, there is going to be a lot of muscle. Do you fast in the morning or is it multiple days?
It depends. If I'm hungry, I eat. If I wake up hungry, I'll eat. I'm not strictly a carnivore. I did it for 100 days to get some blood work done so it was like a baseline. That was one of the toughest things mentally I've ever been through. It’s 100 days of meat with no seasoning and butter.
I don't know if you want to say it here. How much was the cholesterol in the range?
I worked with some doctors that don't subscribe to a primary approach. These are guys that help keep athletes at an optimum weight for their position. If they have an NFL linebacker per se and they're trying to shave time off of his 40 or a side shuffle, they're looking at it scientifically. They're like, “This is what you need to get macro-wise. Your thighs are way too much so you need to stop doing deadlifts and start doing whatever this workout is. We need to lean you down here.”
They're looking to optimize you to the point of being successful at whatever you want to athletically achieve. When I went to them, they were like, “What do you want to achieve athletically?” I had to go back and think about it. I was like, “Do I want to look like Sylvester Stallone or do I want to be able to go crush the backcountry? Do I want to be right Cameron Hanes?”
I had to do a deep dive on it. I’m trying to optimize that because that's more the focus. Your body will naturally turn into what you need to be in physically if you have an athletic goal in mind. That's probably a big thing. That's why I continue to do it. I'm trying to reach a goal that I might not ever reach, honestly.
Life's half the pursuit, if not more than half.
Life is half the pursuit, if not more than half.
If I can reach that goal, I probably will never even reach the world record. It's insane. You probably know the workout. It's the body armor workout or the Murph. I've adopted that because it fits well with backcountry stuff. It is body weight mostly minus the 20-pound vest. I've always suffered it doing pull-ups. I can do more pull-ups than I can do in high school. I feel great body-wise because of the diet I'm on. I don't have any inflammation even after workouts. I've physically gotten stronger. It’s good.
I'm trying to get one a week down. Each day, I do one part of it. I did 200 pushups and 300 squats, all body weight. I could do that in a vest. It’s no problem. I was doing it here while I was editing. That's what I love about it most. There are no excuses. I can do this while my kids are at the playground. I can do it when I am in an airport as long as you're not embarrassed being the guy doing pushups but what is everybody else doing? Eating cheeseburgers. I hate running. That's something I'm working on too. I've been in the best shape that I've been in in a long time physically or in terms of cardiovascular. That's improved my jiu-jitsu and stuff.
I've done that with my wife. I’m on Memorial Day as long as I've known her. I've had a bunch of good memories doing that. I usually don't prepare so I'm sore for about ten days afterward. It's brutal. That's awesome.
I'm trying to do it in under an hour with body armor. I'm still doing pull-ups assisted to get to that. One hundred pull-ups is a lot. I have a long way to go.
You'll get it.
In September 2023, I fell off because I was focusing on elk hunting. It was crazy. I lost close to 12 pounds elk hunting and a majority of it was muscle mass. When you're doing pull-ups, it's that fine balance of like, “Do I want to weigh lighter or have more muscle mass?” When you start doing pull-ups, all of a sudden, your forearms look like fucking Popeye. You have veins that you don't know about. Grip strength is different. That helps in jiu-jitsu. If you can master grip strength, that's what it's all about.
I've heard there are some correlations between your grip strength and life expectancy when you get into older age. There are parallels between grip strength and studies on how much longer you're going to live. You'll live a long time.
It’s fun to choke people. We're crushing through this time-wise. I'm sorry. We dove into a conversation. That's what I love about this. I'm getting to know you. This isn't the last one that we're going to do. You live right down the road. I want to talk about your non-profit and what you're doing there because that's super rad.
I appreciate it.
We do a little pre-roll introduction that I record after the episode so they'll know who you are but I don't know much about you. I know you've been on some podcasts. I purposely haven't gone and listened to them because I wanted this to go off naturally. You've been on Wolfe's. Shout out to Wolfe. He's a great friend. Dialing it back, and I'm sure that you've told this story on some other ones, tell us a little bit about your history. You live in Colorado but where were you born and raised? Let's take it all the way back.
I was born in Winchester, Virginia but my parents lived in West Virginia. I lived there for a year or so. It's right on the West Virginia line. I grew up in Blacksburg, Virginia, which is the Southwest corner of Virginia Tech. I had a pretty standard, middle-class upbringing. There's not much there except for the university. All of my classmates and their parents worked for the university. It was all a pretty normal middle-class upbringing. It was great. I wrestled in middle school and high school. I was into that. I was getting Cs so that I could stay on the wrestling team. It was my big academic strive.
Do you mean as opposed to getting As?
That's right.
That was the only reason that I kept my grades up.
I was a bad student. Wrestling was twice a day inside on the mats as much as you could. Coming out of that, I was into the outdoors. I had a big desire to not be on the wrestling mat, which is part of the reason jiu-jitsu has been not at the forefront of my interest. It is like, “I got more time inside on the wrestling mat.” I decided I was going to go to the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga because that's one of the best outdoor sports schools in the Southeast.
I had no idea.
It's an outdoorsy town. Right South of the Smokeys and East of the Cumberland Plateaus, there are tons of mountains.
I have some family that lives in Asheville. I always enjoy going there.
It’s very similar. It’s not close. Crow Fly is not far. You got to go around the Smokeys to get to Asheville from Chattanooga.
It’s the coolest place on the East Coast, for sure, in my opinion. I like the mountains there if you want to experience life. I love that.
It's beautiful. I try to get back at least once a year. My mom lives in Charlotte and I've got some close friends there. I love Western North Carolina. I tried to do the college thing. My parents wanted me to do it. Everyone from my high school went to college. I thought it was what you had to do but I didn't care about it at all. I got down there and was a couple of notches above failing out until around my fourth year when my colleagues were going to graduate and I wasn't. I was like, “What should I do?” My parents were like, “We’re not giving you another dollar.”
This is post-graduation?
No. This is when I should be graduating. I broke my humorous head in a kayaking accident. Kayaking was what was keeping me from partying. I was super into it and I loved it. You had to drive all around the country.
That's a crazy sport. It's so cool.
When I look at it, I'm like, “That looks scary.” I was into it as I could be. It kept me in shape and kept me from drinking beer all the time. It kept me at some of the time. I'm looking around and I'm like, “Even if I do graduate, then what? What am I going to do?” The guys I was in college with seemed to have an idea but I didn't. I didn’t want to do any of the things they wanted to do. I had some friends at the Naval Academy. My best friend went to the Naval Academy from high school. They were finishing too. They all had to go be in the military.
This buddy of mine was like, “There's this thing called Navy SEALs. You should do that.” I was like, “I didn't go to the Naval Academy. How am I going to do that?” He was like, “It doesn't matter. Enlist in the Navy. You can do it.” I didn't know that much about it. I knew a little bit. This was the pre-Bin Laden raid. People knew what Navy SEALs were but not like now. I thought, “I'm doing this. This will be a second chance. I can wipe the slate clean.”
Did go check out any of the iconic films like Navy Seals or anything with Charlie Sheen or any of that?
No.
Some of the guys that I know from the teams are a bit older than you. Some of them attest that watching that as a kid is why they wanted to be in the Navy SEALs. They watched Rambo in First Blood or something like that.
The Discovery Channel did a documentary on BUDS. It was in eight episodes. In a year, I probably watched all 8 episodes 40 times. I knew all the characters and stuff. I was super into it. It’s embarrassing for me to admit that but I'll do it.
It's better than the movie Navy SEALs. Have you ever seen that?
I've seen that.
It’s lame.
There wasn't as much going on in the media at that time. I was like, “This is going to be a fresh start for me. I'll prove to my friends and my family that I'm not this guy who's getting Cs and Ds in college and do something with my life.” There's not much story after that. I went out there. It was a fresh start. I was lucky enough to make it through all the training.
That's a feat in itself. What's the attrition rate?
It’s 85% maybe. It's hard to tell. Some guys will get knocked out but come back later with other classes. I went out to San Diego. I knew the guys that I'd been in boot camp with and I was like, “Here we go.” Once I started getting some wins in training, it was like, “There were 200 people here yesterday. Now, there's only 100 and then 50.” My confidence built up. I was like, “Maybe I'm supposed to be here. Maybe I'm not a loser.” That set the tone.
Fast forward 9 years later, I had done 3 deployments. I wasn’t engaged. It went by like that. I elected to go out to Virginia Beach, which I regret. My family was in Virginia but five hours from Virginia Beach though. They were like, “Fill out this sheet. You guys are going to graduate in a month. Do you want to be here in San Diego where it's beautiful, you can go surfing, there are some of the best food in the United States, and it's nice every single day or do you want to go to Virginia Beach?” I was like, “I'll see my friends and my family more in Virginia Beach. I don't know anything about Virginia Beach.”
They were like, “That’s good. You're going to Virginia Beach.”
That's what I did. I was there the whole time.
That's your choice. Once you are in a platoon, you either have to choose between San Diego or Virginia Beach.
When you're about to graduate, you have to choose. Sometimes, not enough people will choose Virginia so they'll force guys to do it.
Those guys are probably pretty bitter.
It's not all bad. The community there is very tight. It's not as big nearly as San Diego. You've been to Coronado. You go across that bridge and you've got 30 options of places to live.
There are so many distractions there.
There's a lot you can do in San Diego. The guys live in a multitude of ten different areas. In Virginia Beach, they all live in the same spot. If you live in a typical cul-de-sac-type neighborhood, there'll be other SEALs on your street or you go out to dinner. It's a tight community for better or for worse. It’s work-focused. It’s not that San Diego isn't but if you're a SEAL in Virginia Beach, you're living it and breathing it every day. In that aspect, it's a great community. In terms of the town, I didn't enjoy it at all. There’s nothing to do than to go to the beach, which is rainy and cold half the year.
I've spent a little bit of time there so I know what it's about.
I did three deployments. I was loving it. I still think about the world of the teams and being in the military. I would recommend it to another young guy. I did the same work three times over so I was looking for something new. I had had some concussions in the same year so I was being encouraged to do something else.
I was looking to do something else because I had been deployed to the same continent for 6 or 7 years and my wife was pregnant. I was like, “What if we got out? This is a good time.” I had a lot of curiosity about the world and myself, how tough I was, and what it was like to be in combat. I'm not as curious as I was anymore. We could get out, move to Colorado, and raise our kids so that's what we did. I've been here for a few years.
Do you like it here?
I love it.
It’s a great state.
I was thinking how lucky I was. We were in Winter Park in Grand County. It was this blend where the leaves were still probably on their last week but above about 11,000 feet with snow. When you look at the mountains, you can see the yellow at the bottom and then white on top. It was amazing. I was thinking about how much I like it here.
We're happy to have you. I love having veterans and people who genuinely care about the outdoors or appreciate the outdoors. I don't care who you are. You don't have to be a veteran either. Have the appreciation and the common respect for the outdoor spaces and stuff like that. Anybody's welcome here. A lot of what’s dubbed is native Colorado people have a chip on their shoulder about it. You're not going to change that. Embrace it.
What can you do?
I wouldn't have cool people to talk to if it wasn’t for you.
I appreciate that.
This goes without saying, thanks for your service. Can I ask you a personal question? I don't want to get too personal. If you don't want to answer it, you can tell me. Don't worry about that.
It’s all good.
You hit on something. Is there a little bit of underlying guilt? I’ve found some of the guys that I've talked to, whether they've served 20 years or 30 years, that when they get out, they almost feel guilty that they're making that next step in life. There are a lot of people that could take something from this. This is the only reason I'm asking this question.
It's almost like you're leaving your team, platoon, or unit. It could even be wildland firefighting or your level of servitude to take on a normal life. You guys have sacrificed over half of your life, which most civilians have never even thought about other than donating to a non-profit. There's not a whole lot of servitude in our country. The people that do it at the highest level, when I talk to them, when it comes up to their transition, it's not uneasy but it’s a hard thing for them to swallow. Do you feel that way a little bit? Do you notice it in the community a little bit? I don't think you guys should feel that way, honestly.
In my conscious mind, when I talk through it, I don't feel guilty. In my subconscious sometimes, I do. I don’t know. When I was getting out, it was hard. When I decided to get out but I wasn't out yet, that was a big thing. It was an everyday battle. It was like, “Is this the right thing to do? Is this a selfish thing to do?”
In my conscious mind, when I talk through it, I don't feel guilty. In my subconscious, sometimes I do. It was an everyday battle.
It’s got to be such a gratifying job but also a stressful job at the same time. There's a level of fun to it. I can't speak for it and I can't speak for you.
It's super fun.
It's a very rock and roll job. I love rock and roll because there are explosions and cool stuff going on. I don't even want to go down this road but in my mind, if I didn't have such a successful career and what I did do where it swallowed my life and I got to go all over the world and do cool shit with it, I might have found myself in the military.
I probably wouldn't have been a SEAL because I wasn't smart enough to go down that path, physically fit, or in the right stature. I’ve met a few SEALs that were my size. Some are former SEALs. Some of them are still active too. We will talk off the mic. You might know somebody. There are a few boys that played college-level football that were SEALs. They were linemen too. They’re not little dudes.
When you're going through the training, it behooves you to be a runner. After that, the guys going to get huge.
For the most part, you guys aren't the biggest guys but you destroy people.
That's a misconception. There are dudes that fit the look, for sure. There are guys I've seen capable of some serious violence and athletic feats that are 5’9” and get Buck 50ed. You see it all the time.
That's what we were talking about with jiu-jitsu too. You cannot judge a book by its cover. I know a lot of the guys from your community who were former SEALs or former operators who are from personal protection. A lot of guys transition into either contracting or personal protection. It’s crazy. Some of these guys aren't the hugest stature but will destroy you. I've tried to sabotage them in the back hallway of an arena or something on purpose because we ended up being friends and they have a wrestling background. You guys like to pick on people too a little bit.
It's an unassuming group. For the most part, though, we used to go out to dinner. The platoon would go to a restaurant or something. It’s a bigger group of guys but there are little guys mixed in there. I felt bad. You realize the other things in life. The team is one thing that needs me in general. I have kids and a wife. You’re responsible for yourself and your mental health too.
That's one of the most important parts. We talked about this. If you're not solid in that, you can't be solid in other aspects of your life. You have to take care of yourself first.
If you're not careful, you can end up being someone you don't want to be. If you’re like, “I'm never getting out. I'm doing 25 years no matter what,” life can eat you if you're not careful. I saw myself potentially traveling in the direction of a person that I didn't want to see myself or be like a dad.
I can understand that. That's why I got out of rock and roll straight up.
When I talk to guys that are getting out, I try to spread light on that. I’m like, “Are you going to be doing combat missions in the second ten years? If you stay in, on your next deployment, are you going to be saving the innocent and taking down terrorists? Are you going to be in Germany or elsewhere doing a job that you don't want to do and away from your family?” It’s not that those jobs aren't important but it's not that common that you're doing what we see in action movies.
20 deployments in a row for 20 years is rare. It's not impossible but there's a difference between like, “I'm going to get out of the military because of A, B, and C. I'm not going with my platoon to combat on the next run.” That's a little bit of a different scenario. It’s like the mental health piece we were talking about. Nobody's scenario is the same. It’s very nuanced and unique to the individual. It's hard to say, “Getting out early is X, and staying in is admirable.”
Veterans Outdoor Advocacy Group: Nobody's scenario is the same. It’s very nuanced and unique to the individual. It's hard to say that getting out early is X, and staying in is admirable.
Becoming a father is a heavy thing too.
It caught me by surprise. Your buddies have kids before you. You're like, “It looks fun. Kids look funny.” You then have them and you're like, “This is my job. I've got to keep them safe and make sure they don't become little shitheads.” It's a lot of responsibility to make sure they're good people. They have everything from healthcare and their whole attitude is not all messed up.
It’s the second chapter of life, for sure. I wanted to touch on that because that's something I haven't asked. We’re getting to know each other so I don't know why the hell I asked you.
Every veteran you ask, you’d probably get a different answer. No one is taking it seriously. It's an emotional decision.
It's an identity.
I remember calling back to my buddies that were still in. If they would've said, “We're going on a hostage rescue,” they wouldn't say that over the phone. If they were like, “You're missing out,” it would've crushed me.
You want to be there.
I would've felt like I quit. I was on the team. The team's still in the game and I'm over here in Denver skiing. I would've felt terrible. I was fortunate that didn't happen.
When did you get out?
‘19. There’s stuff going on no matter what all the time but it’s not high-tempo. If you would've got in ‘09, you would've gone to Iraq and Afghanistan. That cycle would've kept going and you wouldn't been out. My experience was I would call back and the dudes are bitching about whatever they had to do.
I’m sure you’re rubbing it in too. You’re like, “I’m skiing.”
I’m like, “Talk louder. It's windy out here on the ski slope.”
We touched on your background. You came to Colorado. What was the catalyst for you coming to Colorado? Do you have family here? Did you talk about that?
No. There's no story.
You picked a spot on the map.
I was in Virginia Beach. I felt like my options were to go to the beach and I had to do that at work. On my vacation time between these deployments, we would come here to Denver or wherever we went. Usually, it’s a mountain destination. When I was getting out, my wife was like, “You getting a job is probably the number one priority. You can piece that together.” I only looked for jobs in Denver because I wanted to be out here. That's somewhat facetious but about 70% true. It was such a break from beach life, which I had been doing. I had taken to climbing, mountain biking, and skiing a lot. I was super interested in it, which I still am.
That's great. You can go do that on your lunch break.
I thought that Denver was there were mountains all around it in the city. It's like the Mile High.
Like Salt Lake?
Yeah. I thought, “That's a mountain city.” I got here and was like, “This is the flattest place I've ever seen.”
Anything East of downtown, we locals consider that Nebraska or Kansas. It's not even Colorado. I'm sorry to anybody that lives out there on the Eastern planes but it's different. It's almost like a red and blue line a little bit. You get over on the Western Slope and it's another line. It's different.
I remember thinking, “This is confusing.” We live in Golden which is a lot more like I had pictured. I moved out here and connected with a close friend, a SEAL who was taking other veterans outside for mental health reasons. He utilized the outdoors for his post-military processing and processed some of his journeys. He started doing that with his buddies and then that turned into a little annual outing. They were climbing different mountains every year. It’s informal. He teamed up with another SEAL and they were like, “This is so palpable. This is a real thing. This is a real form of therapy.” I know it is for me and I know it is for these 50 other guys I've done this with.
It's my biggest self-help therapy. That's why I take the time off and go to the backcountry. The only thing that'll drag me out is going to a Bare Knuckle fight with you. Even my wife knows. Unless one of the kids is dying or the house is burning down, I'm probably not going to come out. If my car breaks down, I have a plan B. I got a backup car.
Everyone gets it. It doesn't take an Andrew Huberman chemistry lesson to explain. Everyone who participates in some outdoor thing knows the therapeutic benefit. About this time, a bill was being drafted. It was an idea that would bring outdoor recreation therapy to the VA point, the end state being where the veteran goes to their psychotherapy provider or care provider. On the list of pharmaceutical prescriptions would be yoga and a multitude of things, outdoor therapy being one.
It’s like physical therapy then?
Yeah. The care provider could say, “We know a lot of vets have found fly fishing to be cathartic, elk hunting, or skiing. If that's a program you can enroll and participate in, we will cover the cost.” This is no different than any other healthcare thing. This is a bill.
This is through the VA?
Almost. It’s very close. It's being studied through a task force.
All we hear about the VA, and I'm probably a spreader of some propaganda too in that realm, is most of the guys that I talk to are my personal friends and incredible people. It’s always a horror story from the VA. I'm glad that there's some reform or change that might be happening there. I'm hopeful for that.
I am too. It doesn't have the best bar-room reputation. They started a non-profit and said, “Let's advocate for this bill and bring this to as many veterans as we can. Let's not just take 100 veterans outdoors. Let's change the way we think about veteran mental health and involve the outdoors forever.” We advocated for that bill from about ‘17 to 2020. It was included in the COMPACT Act, which passed.
That initiated a task force to study the efficacy of outdoor recreation therapy and the use of public lands for veteran mental health and non-mental health as well. It’s physical health access in general. We're many months into it. In the 24th month, this task force which we're on, we'll write a recommendation letter to Congress. VOAG’s job is to make sure the letter says, “This is real. This is working.”
VOAG is the name of the organization, correct?
Yes. It's our mission to make sure that letter says, “This is real.” That's what we're all about. It's advocacy. We used to do a ton of trips. We do a couple a year to shine a light on the benefits of it and help the organization grow, scale, and everything like that. It’s a legislative advocacy group that's trying to get this put into the VA for the long-term. It's been awesome. That chapter of my life has been the best. It’s been a huge blessing to be part of VOAG. It’s the identity piece. I got out here and got a job in tech.
The one thing I noticed when you sent me the link prior to coming on the show after we hung out that night which I thought was cool was the amount of people that you have involved. You have medical professionals that are involved and people that come from all different walks of life. It's not just veterans that are out.
It's an incredible team.
It’s a big team too.
It spans way more demographics of veterans from different wars. When I first got involved, I thought, “We'll ski to the top of a fourteener.” When we ski down, we get this adrenaline hit. We're like, “It's badass.” It's therapeutic to me. That's the deal. I found out that Vietnam veterans meet in Central Park on Sunday mornings. They meet up together and walk the park. People stand up and paddleboard on flat water. It doesn't have to be the X Games to be therapeutic. It’s everything from climbing Denali down to a walk in a park. It's amazing.
There's not anyone who is a veteran and isn't interested in terms of, “It's a SEAL thing or an Army thing.” There is none of that. It's across the whole board. There's been an amazing team. If there's one thing we've done well, somehow through the grace of God, we got some smart people involved that have helped us move the needle. It's a blessing.
I can attest to that. I'm a huge advocate for that. I've worked with some non-profit organizations that do a similar thing, not on the legislative side or getting it to the VA but they're not putting a limit on anybody with a handicap or a veteran. A lot of these guys are severely disabled or mentally not stable enough to check in and do something. It's weird about the outdoor community. If you're a skier, a bow hunter, or a fly fisherman, the moment you walk into one of those pro shops, you're automatically judged. There's an ego inside of that community.
I’ve talked about this so much.
It's such bullshit. If you are a good pro shop or fly fishing shop, and I've touted this since day one, be nice to people. Don't make somebody feel dumb for asking a common question. This is how we keep this going. There are different levels to everything. There's a different level to bow hunting. Not everybody's going to be Cameron Hanes or spike like Aaron Schneider. Be accepting of whatever it is. One of the coolest things about your organization and what it brings to the table is there is a massive decline in people who are using the outdoors for recreational stuff.
We're so lucky in the state of Colorado. There's a ton of public land. If people aren't using it or not using it to its full potential, or people aren't hunting, eventually, that's going to get taken away or the decline's going to happen. There are groups out there that are advocating for hunting to be taken away. It's this constant battle being at the legislative level and doing something there that also helps build or it's recruitment to the outdoors. You're giving somebody else an alternative to taking a pharmaceutical or taking psilocybin maybe. Maybe that's enough to help somebody.
I appreciate that. It's a lot. The more I've gotten involved in public land management and legislation, there is so much controversy. It's so shitty. People don't agree on anything. It's such a privilege you take for granted about being an American on how much public land there is and how you're free to go and use it at any time.
Unless you live in Texas. Some states are more than others. Colorado is 40%.
With certain things, they've certainly made it challenging. In terms of hunting, for me, half the reason I've not gotten as into it as I can is navigating the whole system of the plots, lotteries, licenses, and tags. You're on the thing for 40 minutes and you're like, “Someone tell me what to do.”
It is confusing. You can call Colorado Parks and Wildlife as one of the best. They have a hotline. Not a lot of people know this. If you pick up any of the regs, and I'm sure we have a set of regs somewhere in here which we probably have 3 or 4, they have a hotline that you can call. They have people that are standing by on the phone to talk to you. They're called hunt planners. They are the most open. You can ask them any legislative question. You can get their number online. There's a ton of information on their website. It is a tough space to navigate because they're trying to manage so much and wildlife populations. There should be an easier system.
I can argue both sides. It should be easier but then, it's like, “Should it?” We got to respect the lands and make sure it's not a wild ass, “Go shoot an animal anymore you want.”
We got to respect the land and make sure we're not shooting animals anymore and anywhere we want.
Colorado, so that people know who are reading this and are considering hunting, is one of the easiest states to hunt in on those lottery scales. If you don't end up drawing a tag in that lottery scale, you can go to Walmart. Even if you're an out-of-state person, you have to have a hunter safety, I believe. You can buy an over-the-counter elk tag that's good for a good portion of the state. The success rate, you got to look at that too. Don't think just because you bought a tag. That does give you an opportunity. It doesn't matter. You can buy that. As long as you're within the season and you know the rules, there are a ton of places you can go. You don't have to go through that lottery system there.
It's incredible. It’s not just hunting but also mountain biking. You wake up on a Saturday and you’re like, “Which of the 50 trails in Jefferson County do we go on today?”
You have to pick your hobbies. With VOAG and the organization, what are some of the things that you guys are trying to achieve? Let’s break it down two ways. If somebody wanted to get involved to help a veteran or an active duty guy and your organization specifically, what are some of the ways that they can help?
Let's think about it in micro help tomorrow and then let's help the big system, which is how we approach the whole system. If you want to help a veteran in need tomorrow, we have what's called The VOAG Coalition. There are nearly twenty organizations that have come together for this cause independently. You have horseback riding, standups, paddle boarding, surfing, and hunting. There are about twenty of them. These are the actual implementations of outdoor recreation therapy. They will receive the veteran and take them on the experience.
What are you guys doing? You said hunting.
Our core mission is advocacy. Think Capitol Hill work. Since we need the voice of the actual doers, the people on the ground, we started what's called The VOAG Coalition. These are twenty other non-profits that do outdoor recreation therapy day in and day out.
Are these people like Parkers Platoon?
Exactly.
That's a great organization as well.
We can help pair the veteran with their interest or their location in that capacity. If you support VOAG itself, that's going to be the DC Capitol Hill work. That is where the veteran is seeking care through the VA and then they have these options available to them. There's an immediate, “I'm looking out for my buddy. He's hurting. My brother is hurting. He'd benefit from a hunting trip tomorrow.” There's what VOAG itself does, which is policy work
That makes a lot more sense. I didn't dive into it.
One of VOAG’s challenges takes 5 minutes or 10 minutes to explain. It’s not like, “We take him horseback riding.”
Podcasting is the perfect platform for you. I'd be glad to help you guys get on some more.
Thanks, and thanks for having me.
I'm happy that you came here. It gets personal as it did for the first half of it. I'm sorry. I distracted you there so I'll let you finish. I wanted to get the basis of what was being offered.
If you want to help a veteran or veterans participate in outdoor recreation therapy experience, go to our website. Click the VOAG Coalition tab. Look at all the non-profits that are in the coalition, and then reach out to us. We'll help get them paired and set up. If you want to help financially, then thank you. Regardless, we'll help him get to that facilitator and go on that trip.
If you support VOAG itself, you're helping our efforts and policy work on the task force and getting this change in the VA over the big picture. What we need is financial support. It helps us keep people to where they can spend as much time as they can on this and engage with policymakers instead of 3 times a year to 10 times a year.
It's okay to ask.
It's not that uncommon.
I know you guys personally. I know a lot of people who have vouched for you.
I appreciate it.
These are good people. I don't support any non-profits that are not doing good things or saying what they're doing. I encourage people to do their homework. You can get some information on your website. All the financial stuff is public. Go do your homework. Even if it's $1, you have a little bit of extra change. If somebody doesn't have money, is there a way that they can help too?
We want to grow that coalition by introductions with groups. Even if they're not non-profits focused on veterans, there are civilian hunting groups and all kinds of stuff. A) Growing our network only helps us. B) We get a lot of inquiries like, “I love what you guys are doing. I want to help. I've got 400 acres in Texas. I've got a ranch in Idaho. I want to get involved. I want to enable you guys to use this property or stretch of river to fish in.” Tons of people have gotten involved that aren't writing checks so reach out. The last thing is to communicate to your lawmakers at the state level or the community level.
Also, the county-level man.
Communicate even to your congressman up the board. It is like, “I'm a veteran. I know some veterans. I've heard about VOAG.” Participating in outdoor recreation is something that's made an impact on my life, my brother's life, and my dad's life. It's not right that the whole thing is propped up by the Bass Pro Shops and the Black Rifle Coffee companies.
A lot of these groups that are extremely generous are why we're able to do so much. That's not 100% the case. There are some great grants and some different programs that people can enable. In large part, a lot of these nonprofits you see that are taking veterans out have someone in their corner who's supporting them, and it's not the US government.
I found that out too.
It's not an absolute. The point is the private sector is doing disproportionate and private individuals that are wealthy or doing a disproportionate amount of supporting this effort than they should, in my opinion.
We can reallocate some tax dollars. I'm not much of one for more taxes normally but something like this, I could stand behind.
I appreciate it. It had a big impact on my life. It still does every day.
Let's reallocate some of that money even more. Let's get away from using the SSRIs and some of the stuff that they prescribe that I'm sure costs a fortune. Especially when it's at the VA level, I'm sure that they're getting charged more than you are walking in with your Rx.com.
It’s not an expensive program relative to some things that the military and the Department of the VA spend on. We're not asking for 100 new F-16 jets or something or a couple of billion bucks.
If you did ask for that, they like peeling those big checks out. Maybe you can.
I want to see what the flag sales have been since that. I'm sorry. We're going down a path I don't even want to go down. I attest to that. I spend so much time in the outdoors and putting myself through my self-suffering on purpose so I can be better cognitively. I've seen it help veterans and disabled people firsthand, and some of the other organizations that I would like to talk to you about.
Maybe we should talk about that off-air. There are a ton of great organizations out there that are doing amazing things. It's super therapeutic. I've experienced it firsthand. One thing that I've noticed the most is if you come from a military background, especially an operator's background, gear is everything. Hunting and fishing are the same way, as well as backcountry skiing.
Maybe not stand-up paddle boarding but there's still gear involved. To have that purpose for you guys that are so bred with what I call OCD on how your gears are put together, maintaining that, and having that, I feel like there's a correlation there a little bit when it comes to tying flies or getting your archery stuff together in your backpack if you're going to go spike camp. There's also that level of comradery because you're starting to do stuff with a team of people, your friends, or your close friends. It's much more than, “Here's nature. How fun. Sit on this ridge and wait for an elk to walk by.”
With the gear thing, I don't fully wrap my head around that. Military units and a lot of outdoor enthusiasts are super gear nerds. For the camaraderie part, when you go in the outdoors commonly, not all the time, there's a silent agreement between you and the people you're with. It is like, “I'm going to look out for you on this hunt, trip, or ski trip, and you're going to look out for me.” There's a risk element. That's every day on deployment. You wake up and go to sleep. That contract is in place. In the civilian world, that's rarer.
Hunting might be the closest thing to it that you could do as a civilian. I'm not comparing the two. They’re two different things. If you're doing it at the level, whether you're sitting around a campfire drinking beer and road hunting, you're still there with your buddies. If you shoot something, there's still some shit that's going to go down and some adversity you're going to face. That's the worst way to portray hunting in my mind because I do it the opposite way.
We're starting to get back into those cliquey things like, “I'm better than you because I do it this way.” Some people might not have that capability. Maybe they're hunting from a wheelchair. That happens. Facing some adversity and doing it as a team, that's why I only invite certain people to elk hunting with me. I want people that I can trust. If I pack out your elk, you're not going to leave elk camp. You're going to stay and help me. There's a little bit of team building out there.
If you were in Afghanistan years ago and you work at Google, you're going to crave that community and dependency. I don't want to speak for anyone else but myself but it makes sense that's what a therapeutic experience does or they miss it.
Plus, you get to put the cleanest food on your table. That feels good. That’s an accomplishment in itself. We're coming up on time. I want to be respectful of your time.
You’re good. Thanks for having me.
I'm in no rush either if you can hang out for a minute. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you wanted to dive into? I took over this conversation.
It's all good. It's great. I loved it. It’s VOAG.org. We're always looking to grow the coalition and work with other groups that are focused on the outdoors and veteran mental health. There's a long way to go. We've come a long way but we could do a lot more.
Veterans Outdoor Advocacy Group: We're always looking to grow the coalition and work with other groups that are focused on the outdoors and veteran mental health. There's a long way to go. We've come a long way, but we could do a lot more.
I'm here to help you. You guys have a platform here.
I appreciate that.
What we do here is more individual-based but I'm all about helping organizations like yours, Parkers Platoon, and good organizations. River Deep is another one. It's been amazing. You guys always have a platform here to talk about whatever you want. I encourage anybody who's reading this that has the means to help support these organizations. If I stand behind them, I've done my vetting and it is a good organization. I want to open that invitation. Plus, I enjoy you as a person.
Thanks. I appreciate that. I enjoy you too.
We have recurring guests. I've tried to build a little bit of a community here. I've kept it close-knit with some common friends. We share a lot of mutual friends so you're part of the crew. We'll have to get you back up. You live right down the road.
That's right, twenty minutes.
What's coming up with VOAG? What's the biggest thing that's happening at the moment that you guys are working on or could use some help with?
We wrapped up our annual coalition summit. We were at the Eiseman Hut in Vail. It's about 8 miles North of 70 on Vail. It's beautiful. It's the highest hut. It was an amazing trip. You can check out the video online.
Is it super long?
It’s two minutes.
Is it the one that you sent me?
Yeah.
This is awesome. Who put this together for you?
A veteran named Lane Mathis. He is a beautiful cinematographer.
Is he a local?
He is.
That's badass. The cinematography is awesome.
All the people in this video head a non-profit in America. These are all directors of different non-profits.
We'll share this.
I appreciate that. Thanks a lot.
I appreciate having you. Thanks, everybody, for reading. Ben, thanks for your time.
You got it. Thank you.
Important Links
Chris Camozzi - Past Episode
Dave Roberts - Past Episode
Ben Strahan - Past Episode
VOAG Coalition 2023 - YouTube